Fun or folly with RCA 84

[Eric Kettenburg]

I have been fascinated with this rifle for quite some time.  Many affectionally refer to it as "the ugly bird box gun" and admittedly, while I appreciate the evidence of long and hard use, it sure is an ugly box.  Aside from that, it's extremely interesting because of the early-appearing step stock, and a relatively stout stock, despite not being "really big" in the stock like say the Marshall gun or the Shreit or others assumed to be quite early, or pre-War at least.  It's also interesting because of the distinctive and somewhat unique carved decoration.  Our old friend Earl owned it for some time, although it's been through another caretaker or two since and it's been moderately worked over to address some of the damage issues including a new guard, new cock, removal of sheet repairs etc.

This piece has been attributed, variously, to Berks Co., Lancaster, VA and points south etc.  Being fairly unique, it's tough to really pin it down.  My personal belief for many years now is that it's an early 'upper townships' rifle, i.e. made in either NW Northampton Co. up above Neihart and in the townships up along the blue mtn, or in NE Berks in the same upper townships up along the blue mtn.  I've heard attributed dates everywhere from the 1740s to the 1780s.  I'd feel pretty comfortable looking at it as a pre-Rev War gun, but leaning more toward late 1760s or early 1770s as opposed to F/I era.

A number of years ago, while Earl owned it, it was noted that the rifle originally carried evidence of of side-opening box underneath the later bird-box addition.  I've no specific information on size or more specific details at the moment, but I did have something of a light bulb moment when I was told this. 

I'll let my poor photoshopped (actually it's Pixelmator) mock up say the rest.  I've done my best but I'm not a graphic artist or photo editor so cut me some slack.  I have done as best I can to keep proportions accurate.  I would love to engage in some speculative discussion of this!  Rifle of the pre-War era and (I believe) of NH or eastern Berks with a replaced box, replacing a missing side opener, and a damaged side opener of the same region and same approximate date that remarkably - shape wise - could fit quite well including the butt angle...   

Linda Richman says discuss amongst ourselves?

[Robert Wolfe]

Well, that box is definitely better than the bird!

[rich pierce]

I’ve always found this gun interesting. The stepped wrist is pronounced and distinctive, not echoing Moravian guns, the Deschler rifle or the Isaac Berlin stepped-wrist gun. Funky carving. The patchbox folksy engraving goes well with the funky carving on this gun.

[Eric Kettenburg]

On thing that is extremely interesting is that the tang carving on this gun (84) carries the somewhat unique little triangular flat behind the tang that is quite evident upon 41-43 as well as the Rochester/Monmouth piece, complete with the distinctive cross-hatching there to fill the flat. 

I find it very hard to view this carving and not see it as somewhat prototypical of what is seen later in the work of Jacob George or Stofil Long, as well as some later unsigned pieces that have variously been viewed as Angstadt-related or otherwise unknown but architecturally of the region.  As if this guy was working a generation prior.

[DaveM]

Eric, this one always interested me also.  The cheek piece also give me a berks feel.  It did not register with me before but you may be on to something with the Angstadt connection. Folksy, and the flowery scroll work with dots and ashes.  Good eye for noticing the triangular carving, that is a clue.  Maybe old George Angstadt!

I have a bunch of really nice sharp closeup photos of this gun and have absolutely no idea where I ever got them but I assume it is not ok to post them.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dave I think we have the same set of photos and I also am not sure about posting.  There also are decent auction photos from the last time it sold, and one of those is what I used for the above mock up.  I don't remember specifically the auction house or auction off the top of my head, however.

[Eric Kettenburg]

My lengthy explanation above notwithstanding, the summary version here is that I believe it's **possible** that the Leyendecker box lid **might** be the side opening box original to the rifle. 

Would love to know more about what evidence under the 'bird box' indicates an earlier side opener.

[Buck]

This is an interesting rifle, I haven't had much exposure to the early pieces, but I'd agree the cheek rest appears to be reminiscent of Berk's architecture.

George A. (IMHO) is a stretch, he was a weaver - an early Adam could be a possibility. I would buy into that if in fact the Bird Box was original to the rifle. The side opener per Eric's thoughts would (IMHO) eliminate that possibility.

The evidence that we've seen eliminates the "early" Angstadt smiths from the side opener due to the engraving - Abraham was the first to employ engraving - he was born in 1784 (this rifle was easily manufactured 10 years + before his birth).
The carving - "punching / gouging" is an Angstadt staple, I've seen it employed in other "Upper Townships" pieces.

I'll buy into a possible Adam piece.

Buck 

[DaveM]

it would be interesting to further explore the known rifles that "could be" Adam Angstadt made (not "A.A" or "A. Angstadt" marked rifles which were the later Abraham Angstadt).  Possible Adam rifles like this one, and several posted in the previous "Gideon Angstadt" thread, and kindig #63, #64.  If Adam made some or all of these various rifles he may have a good number of surviving pieces and may have varied his style a bit over the years.  Some of the crude / folksy details in execution may be unique like some of the methods you point out Buck.  It would be interesting to have photos of his possible rifles and try to put them in some sort of time sequence.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Hey Noel:  I think when Dave said "old George" he was indicating Hans George, the original immigrant, although maybe the Johannes Rupp thread and the argument re: naming custom is going to merge with this one?  LOL  . Or alternately, is there evidence that Hans George Angstadt was a weaver?  I've never seen anything to indicate anything other than farming, but then I haven't looked into him that deeply given my primary interest is the Angstadt gunsmiths and I've never seen anything other than anecdote to reference him as a gunsmith either.  Wasn't one of his sons (one of Adam's brothers) a weaver - was it Johannes? 

I know there is a reference in one of the old county histories to George (Hans George) being a gunsmith "on the Lobachville Pike" but at this point I am convinced that this is mistaken remembrance and the gunsmith there was actually Johannes Moll before he moved over to Allentown.  I'm sure our mutual friend has mentioned this to you previously - Moll was the "gun jockey."

I would have thought Peter was the first to employ engraving?  I would tentatively posit Joseph also although in his case, it may be a question of just exactly who was executing the engraving?

I don't really know if this could be an earlier Angstadt or not.  I know some I've spoken to see it that way and I can see that viewpoint very well - certainly a strong possibility.  When I say that I see it as an "upper township" rifle, I'm talking about (in Berks) maybe Greenwich or Albany, or over in NH Co., maybe Lynn, Heidelberg or Moore etc.

I could easily see it as a potential Henry George rifle, although of course I have nothing to compare it to other than his son's later work.

One thing I would also like to determine is if the weird box release, which I believe is riveted to the buttplate, is original or if it was added when the bird box was installed.

[rich pierce]

For my edification on early Angstadt rifles, which is proposed to have made the one Greg Dixon has or had?  And where would that gun be relative to this?  1790s perhaps for Greg’s?  A generation or two removed from this I assume.

[Buck]

Eric,

Here's the list of vocations that I have on the Angstadts - Farmer, Hatter, Gunsmith and Weavers.

There are multiple Georges:

1.) George (Adams Grandfather) - Germany / Weaver.
2.) Hans George (Adams Father) - Emigrated to the states - Farmer.
3.) George (Adams Brother) - Farmer.
4.) George Zanger (Adams Nephew Son of Eva Angstadt).

Children of Hans George:

1.) John (B) 1732 - Weaver
2.) George (B) 1726 - Farmer
3.) Eva (B) 1729
4.) Peter (B) 1737 - Gunsmith
5.) Jacob (B) 1724 -
6.) Barbara (B) ?
7.) Esther (B)?
8.) Adam (B) 1740 - Gunsmith

Not sure who the Hatter(s) are but this is the current info I have on occupations 1st Generation or what we might consider the beginning of the Gunsmith Dynasty.

Regarding my comment on the engraving:

Adam (the rifles that a select few of us attribute to him), Joseph, and Peter displayed a technique of chipping, gouging and stamping. For example; the 3 bird tracks, punch / single stamp (dot) / half circles - triangular gouge / fanning are what I consider Angstadt staples. They produced multiple combinations employing these techniques. Peter, as you mentioned previously, did execute some engraving beyond the Angstadt norm. However Abraham executed engraving a skill level well beyond his two older brothers and father. IMHO the engraving on the patch box lid you mocked up is a bit more intricate than the typical work we attribute to Adam or Joseph, however Peter could be a possibility but the Stock Architecture makes me think otherwise. The crude Bird Box is something that I'd take a hard look at if you thought it was original since the rifles we tend to believe are Adams have pretty crude furniture.

Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunities to handle as many early pieces as you have. I'd love an opportunity to handle this rifle because it is intriguing. The detail at the comb transition (scroll work) and the acorn beaver tails are something we've seen on the supposed Adam rifles - the tang carving would be nice to see since that is a detail that never changes on Adams work.

Always a pleasure Eric - look forward to your response.

Buck

[Buck]

Eric,

Somewhere I have a family tree indicating Hans George as a weaver. We moved 9 months ago and much of the info that I had disappeared in the move along with changing internet service that resulted in a loss of a large amount of my digital references.

Our mutual friend did in fact mention early in our studies that he believed the Gunsmith on Lobachville Pike was in fact Moll and not Angstadt.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yep, it's funny - I remember our friend mentioning that it was always Moll, not George (Hans George) that was the gunsmith over there, and he was telling me that at least 20 years ago.  He gave me copies of warrantee map Bob Angstadt worked out showing Moll already there practically right next to the Angstadts at the time of Berks Co. formation ca. 1752-ish, and a number of years back Dave M turned up the property indenture in Berks proving that it was indeed Johannes Moll the gunsmith at the time he moved over to Allentown ca. 1763 - that was the icing on the cake (forever grateful for that find, Dave!).

If I understand Angstadt geneaology correctly, and frankly it admittedly makes my head hurt, the Adam b. 1740 was son of original immigrant Hans George, and he was the gunsmith/clocksmith (I know he was taxed as a clocksmith in late 1780s for sure).  His brother Peter is reputed to have been a gunsmith but I've never seen anything documenting this.  Adam had sons Peter and Joseph, both known to be gunsmiths.  Peter (son of Adam) is the guy believed to have made all the lion-carved rifles, and the engraving on those ranges from kind of 'hasty' but good to quite delicate and good (on the later pieces clearly the same guy w/ same box design, same engraving designs).  Joseph meanwhile seems much more heavy handed, and his signatures (JOS : ANG) have always looked stamped in to my eye.

So far, does this match up with your thoughts?

[DaveM]

Eric & Buck, I’ve also done research and have learned a lot about the makers in the Angstadt family.  Too much to post but here is a summary:

•   All the Angstadts that I found referenced in period documents as “gunsmiths” appear to be Adam Angstadt & his descendants.
•   Adam was taxed as a gunsmith in certain years, a clockmaker in others from the 1780’s all the way through the 1790’s and in both Rockland Twp and Kutztown.  It is the same man (not two Adams) because there is never an instance where it lists two, it was one man listed with one or the other occupation.  I have photos of a tall case clock signed by Adam Angstadt.  I feel Adam was the artistic one and Joseph did not quite have his artistic talent.
•   Joseph was working (taxed) at least as early as 1789 in Rockland Township.  Peter is listed also in the 1780s - but for instance in 1786 Adam was taxed as a gunsmith and Peter as a blacksmith. Adam seemed to be the "lead".
*   Adam had a government gun contract in 1792 for rifles so he must have had some connection to the makers in Reading where Fichthorn Sr. had a contract also that year.
•   Both Daniel Christ (clockmaker and gun barrel maker) and Adam Angstadt (and son Joseph) moved into the town of Kutztown in 1792. 
•   In Kutztown the gunmakers and clockmakers may have worked together, and in both roles. I suppose they made either clocks or guns (and / or locks &r barrels) depending on the demand that year - and for taxes reported what they were primarily doing. Daniel Christ was only taxed as a clockmaker, but I believe he is the same man who has his name on the underside of a number of surviving rifle barrels.
•   I learned where Adam’s home and shop were in Kutztown.  He had his home and three lots in town but lost them in 1795 to sheriff’s sale, maybe defaulting on his mortgage.  He later was a tenant on the property of Solomon Kutz. 
•   In 1797 Adam had a government contract for musket barrels (did Daniel Christ help make these?)
•   By 1802 Joseph owned property in Kutztown.
•   In 1805 at the age of 22, Abraham Angstadt (the gunsmith) was taxed in Kutztown.  I assume he was already there before learning the business but not taxed.  He got "marry't" there in 1806.  Prior to this time a different Abraham was taxed in Rockland Twp.
*    By 1806, Daniel Christ left Kutztown and Peter Gifft / Gefft (a clockmaker and one of my ancestors) moved into Kutztown.  Gifft may have taken over Christ’s clock business.
•   In 1807 Adam had a government contract for rifle locks (did Peter Gifft help make these?).
•   John Neff, who was a stone mason but also a gunsmith, was already in Kutztown before Adam Angstadt moved there.  He was noted on the tax list as early as 1784 and I believe was born around 1750.  Neff died in 1810.  Joseph Angstadt was mentioned in the estate documents as one of the long list of folks paid some money out of the estate. The estate showed that Neff also made pistols.
•   by 1810 Abraham Angstadt had moved to Orwigsburg.
*   From my notes Adam died in 1811.
•   Joseph and family stayed in Kutztown and later moved to Lewisburg in 1824.

Documented as gunsmiths in period documents:
Generation 1:  Adam (abt 1740-abt 1812)   
          Generation 2:  Peter (son of Adam; 1763 Berks Co.-1815 Berks Co.)
                    Generation 3:  Jacob (son of Peter; 1783 Berks Co. – 1843 Berks Co.)
                    Generation 3:  Joseph (son of Peter; 1794 Berks Co. – after 1870 Berks Co.)   
                              Generation 4:  Joseph (son of Joseph & grandson of Peter; 1817 Berks- 1872 Berks)
          Generation 2:  Joseph (son of Adam; 1765 Berks Co. -before 1850 Milton, Northumberland Co.)
                    Generation 3:  Gideon (son of Joseph; 1800 Kutztown, PA -1854 Lewisburg, PA)   
          Generation 2:  Abraham (likely son of Adam but no proof; 1783 Berks Co. -1867 Indiana); living in Orwigsburg by 1810.
                    Generation 3:  Peter (son of Abraham; 1807 Berks Co. - ? Indiana)
                    Generation 3:  Adam (son of Abraham; 1826 Schuylkill Co. - ? Indiana)

[Buck]

Eric,

Yes, your summary is spot on. Interesting you mention Adam as a Clock Smith, a little known or overlooked fact about Adam.

Adam is documented as a Clock Smith in Reading till the early 1800's (1801-05? this is in a publication our mutual friend has in his possession). Abraham is the result of Adams second marriage to Dorothea of which very little is known (maiden name, birth or death records have not been located). It would appear that Abraham apprenticed in Reading during the time his father was building clocks. The architecture of Abrahams rifles are of that area and his engraving abilities / style are certainly different from the Angstadt style. Our mutual friend has opined that the manufacture of the Reading swivel rifle came to an end when Adam and Abraham returned to Brecknock Kutztown (had Pannabecker on the mind) and the family business. Abrahams mentor is also up for debate - Martin Boyer? I haven't explored that avenue yet, but I've seen photos of a documented rifle by this maker that makes me think this is a viable theory. Like you stated - a headache, but certainly an interesting family that spans at least 4 generations of gun building.

Dave - I have a picture of that same clock, great information as well - thank you for providing it. Jeff Jaegers new book has some information on Abraham as well as his family and westward movements through Ohio and into Indiana of which you touched on briefly. 

Buck

[DaveM]

Buck, thanks for all the info, our responses crossed at the same time.  I did not find any documentation of Adam being in Reading.  That would be most interesting, if there is any document noting him there even briefly.  but I found him living pretty much contiuously first in Ruscombmanor where he inherited his father in laws grist mill in 1763, and later in Rockland twp till 1792 then Kutztown till he died in 1811.