frizzen hardening

[LRB]

  They used simple iron, and case hardened it.

[Jim Chambers]

I'm just sayin.......here's the method I use to harden a frizzen:  First, I use an oxy-acetylene torch as a heat source, and I adjust it to burn a carbon flame.  I hold the frizzen with a piece of welding rod through the screw hole and heat only the face of the frizzen, not the foot.  I heat the part to a bright cherry red/orange color watching the surface until I see a wet or waxy appearance on the metal surface.  I hold it at that temp for a couple of minutes.  Then, I quickly immerse the frizzen in a special quenching oil purchased from a commercial heat treating supplier, moving it around to quickly cool the part until it is cool enough to hold in hand.  I clean off the oil and temper in an oven at 375 degees F. for one hour.  That is the method I and all of my assemblers use in hardening the frizzens on our assembled locks.  That works for us.  I'm not a metalurgist, have had no training, have not read any manuals, I just know what works for me to make a frizzen spark.
If you need to harden one of Stan's frizzens, by all means, follow his directions and dunk the part in water. 
If you need to reharden a frizzen on a lock I assembled, send it back to me and let me do it.  If you're determined to do it yourself, please use the method I described above. Or, use your own method, and I'll be glad to sell you a new frizzen if yours fails.
I'm just sayin................

[bob in the woods]

Jim, if I send it back to you, think about all the fun I'd be missing!  Besides..I like buying stuff from you.
I'll be ordering a replacement today, just in case....not that I'll need it 

[Stan]

Hi Jim! I see that you are a "Fox & Friends" fan!!  Stan

[P.W.Berkuta]

I did not intend to ruffle any feathers .  I use different hardening techniques for different situations with the steel I am using and the job at hand. As all can see each person has his own special technique but the standards are the same-- heat, quench, & anneal, if it is not as hard as you like, try some other method.
I have found that each batch of steel will react slightly different than the last. All that have posted info are smart people and have been doing it for a long time. It is like asking a man what kind of woman do you like -- they all have the same "equipment" it's just how they use it  ,  so my answer is -- all of them will work, you don't like one try another! "Piece" be to all  !

[Dave B]

This is one way to make a small forge from fire brick.  Using just a propane tourch it will heat a frizzen to temp with out a problem. I made this micro forge from two fire bricks that I picked up from a ceramic arts supply in Portland OR. called Georgies. I think they cost me 12.00 each. I posted on the old site this over a year ago. Here are some pic's of it.







it will get your metal hot enough to burn it so you cant just walk away from it or you will have a small lump iron instead of a steel frizzen.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Dave B, now ain't that the "coolest" thing you ever did see . Great job on the cavity carving  . Here's a bit of fire brick info - I know of two types - one being hard & heavy as a brick  , and one being softer & lighter which you can cut into different shapes with little difficulty  . So Dave B with this method you can create almost any shape of forge for the part you want to heat up as long as it is within the boundaries of the bricks  .

[bob in the woods]

I ordered the new frizzen casting from Jim yesterday. Having a spare is usually a sure fire guarantee that I won't need it !

[Dave B]

This is the soft brick and one must be gentile with it or you will have multiple bits.
I am going to make a frame work for mine to allow for a clamshell opening to remove larger parts

[northmn]

A very handy poor man's torch for a builder is a MAPP gas torch.  I just hardened a frizzen with mine and brought it up to the point where the magnet would not pull on it very quickly.  It will handle small parts pretty quick, like that and even do a job of brazing on small projects as well as handling some of the high temp silver solders.  Haven't had a chance to test the frizzen just yet but if it does not work it will likely be becasue of the tempering.  Its an L&R frizzen using a Chambers formula.

DP

[Bryan King]

Why do it the hard way, do it the old way. Ephram told you how to do it a while back here. We did it to my frizzen 2 weeks ago , I shot the gun today in a match ,approx 30 shots ,it was great.It's the only way we do it. Here it is again

    Take the frizzen put it in a Tin can, with a Bone  [with marrow in it] & leather scraps. Fold over top. Place in a hard wood fire.Once it turns dull red , Time it for 20 min.  Take out place in a bucket of water , Swirl it around till cool. it' done , but dont eat it all at once


All jokeing aside, this is how the old timers did it .  My family were old time gun builders you may have seen my great great uncle Charlie Blevins in Fox Fire # 5

[northmn]

Your method depends upon the steel.  A Siler frizzen and many of the others is best done the way they recommend.  There are many different types of alloys that harden differently, such that one needs to know the steel.  As to hardening,you typically, as stated you bring it up to about 1550 or the nonmagnetic state in either water or oils.  The water should be heated,  I learned in my training to about 150 degrees, or you can crack the steel.  Oils have been recommended and I found the Transmission oil to work well.  Some steels are meant to be air hardenend.  As to tempering or drawing out the hardness, as stated a kitchen oven used with a thermometer to get the correct temperature works well.  There are other methods but for home methods that works.  You have to match the technique to the steel for proper results.  There is no "best way"

DP

[Dphariss]

I just did "rearc" on a L&R mainspring and it would not harden in oil, tried twice. Did OK in somewhat warm water with some salt in it.

Dan

[northmn]

For every rule there is an exception isn't there.  Most oil hardened steel will harden in water, but can crack.   I wonder if the carbon level of the spring wasn't marginal, or what do they use for steel?  I just did the L&R frizzen by quenching in oil and it turned out very hard, but is it spring steel as used in the springs.  Anytime you see 10XX you know you are working with iron and carbon turned into steel and can use pretty conventional techniques.  Its when you see number other than 10 in front that you need to know how to deal with it.

DP 

[LRB]

  I don't know about L&R, but Chambers uses 6150 for mainsprings. 6150 is a high chrome shock resistant steel and requires a temp, and soak at 1625°, to 1650°, with an oil quench in order to harden properly. If L&R is using the same steel, you may not have gotten it hot enough. If you quenched when it went non-magnetic you may have been about 211° shy of what you needed. Call L&R and ask what steel it is.

[George F.]

I would like to take the time to thank All who contribute to the forum. You bring with you years of knowledge and skills and in such varied trades. Some are plumbers, lawyers doctors and even dentists, Some are machinists, engineers, and like myself a carpenter. A good portion of us are retired, while some are young enough to still seeking to further their formal education, or are serving in the military. Sometimes people respond to questions and answer like everybody has their basic knowledge. It's great and greatly appreciated, but sometimes we all don't have the in  depth background that some of you do. What I'm trying to say  is try to explain it so we all can understand it. I personally am not that knowledgeable in metalurgy, actually I know very little about it. Some don't understand what 10xx means...I think it means steel with 10% carbon content. I don't know what the xx is. I do know that 6150 is another type steel, but that's all I know. Maybe with a technical answer we could either simplify the answer or explain what is that really. I hope this explains it, and not peed on anybodies boot. Thanks....Geo.

[northmn]

I would like to take the time to thank All who contribute to the forum. You bring with you years of knowledge and skills and in such varied trades. Some are plumbers, lawyers doctors and even dentists, Some are machinists, engineers, and like myself a carpenter. A good portion of us are retired, while some are young enough to still seeking to further their formal education, or are serving in the military. Sometimes people respond to questions and answer like everybody has their basic knowledge. It's great and greatly appreciated, but sometimes we all don't have the in  depth background that some of you do. What I'm trying to say  is try to explain it so we all can understand it. I personally am not that knowledgeable in metalurgy, actually I know very little about it. Some don't understand what 10xx means...I think it means steel with 10% carbon content. I don't know what the xx is. I do know that 6150 is another type steel, but that's all I know. Maybe with a technical answer we could either simplify the answer or explain what is that really. I hope this explains it, and not peed on anybodies boot. Thanks....Geo.[/sub]

Actually the 10XX means that the steel is a simple carbon iron combination.  The XX such as 1095 means a simple carbon combination with 95 points of carbon.  The 61 in the 6150 means that the base steel has an alloy in it with 50 points carbon.  A point of carbon is .01 percent.  My formal training was that of an industrial arts teacher and goes back a ways as I have not taught for many years.  Technology has advanced beyond some of my training.  Jerry explained to me that modern investment casting for springs is done at 15,000 lbs pressure which is supposed to make them as tough as a forged spring.  It may be as forging metal can be as much an art as a science.  (I still think I would prefer a forged spring, but the cost of the locks would be prohibitive)
Basically carbon content permits hardening.   Spring steel can start at about 1065 if I remember correctly, and ends up I would think at the 1095. There is two parts to hardening steel so that it works.  The first is the heating and quenching (hardening) and the second is the drawing with heat (tempering)  Carbon also makes steel brittle as some files are above 100 points of carbon.  Wrought iron has no carbon, is very soft and hardly rusts, which is why some of the old wrought iron nails are still around today.  Carbon steel rusts.  I am amused at movies showing old time shiny knives as one indication of a good knife in the days of simple iron carbon IE (10XX) steel was that grey appearance of oxidation.   Really, if you buy a Siler lock kit from Chambers, follow his instructions, you don't need to know all this.  The Siler kits have been around I think around 40 years if not longer and have been good enough so that major changes have not been deemed to be beneficial.  I use other locks for style, not quality.

DP     

DP

[doug]

      For the benefit of George F, there is a book 2500 pages long called Machinery's Handbook.  You can occasionally find it in garage sales as well as in a short form of a few hundred pages.  It has a second on metal alloys and properties, one of these being a description of the different steel designations and what the numbers refer to.  Not exactly light bedside reading, but is quite useful if you want to know some obscure detail about metal working

cheers Doug

[George F.]

I want to thank you two for the lesson, brief was good, for too deep will only confuse me. Thanks for the info for the book, but I think I will pass at this time. Don't laugh but one of the reasons I didn't go to college was that I am a poor reader, actually I dislike it immensely. The other was the draft was on my butt. I do basically know the process for hardening  and tempering the Siler parts and haven't had a problem with the metal they use. I appreciate the responses and the quick lesson, thanks....Geo.