Author Topic: Pistol grip rifles  (Read 2322 times)

Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Pistol grip rifles
« on: May 28, 2022, 10:25:36 PM »
Are there any note worthy originals, flint preferably that have some form of period pistol grip?  Curious if any late flint half stocks might of had them, British examples?
kw

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19523
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2022, 12:18:25 AM »
So far as I know the guard served the purpose of a pistol grip in positioning the hand at least until 1840 nearly everywhere. The “bag grip” S. Hawken rifle(s) come to mind as an example of a sort of pistol grip on a sporting rifle.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2022, 12:43:35 AM »
Are there any note worthy originals, flint preferably that have some form of period pistol grip?  Curious if any late flint half stocks might of had them, British examples?
kw
There are a lot of them from the mid 19th century,mostly English cap locks.Rare as a football bat on flintlocks from anywhere and few American cap locks used them.Straight grip English target rifles used a good looking trigger guard to serve as a pistol grip and I used
one on the Long Range rifle I made in 2001.
Bob Roller

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15826
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2022, 01:38:41 AM »
So far as I know the guard served the purpose of a pistol grip in positioning the hand at least until 1840 nearly everywhere. The “bag grip” S. Hawken rifle(s) come to mind as an example of a sort of pistol grip on a sporting rifle.





Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2022, 03:12:06 AM »
Yes when I wrote this, the bag grip Hawken was the only one that came to my mind. That evolution, you would think came from something earlier?   I am somewhat intrigued by a flint halfstock build with similar grip. Was hoping here was a example out there to refer to.
kw

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7907
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2022, 03:49:50 AM »
Maybe Feltwad will check in on this or other across the pond members.  :-\

Offline BruceH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2022, 12:37:10 PM »
I have been recently building a few rifles like you describe.  My research found that the Swiss Match rifle came closest to what I was looking for.  I did a lot of research and did find a (very) few American half stock flint rifles with the pistol grip.  I found more that had the trigger guard built in a manner to give the feel/support of the wood grip - a few American and quite a few English.






Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2022, 03:50:49 PM »
BruceH
As you suggested, I found a few pictures of Swiss flint target rifles with the "grip" and some do have a pretty radical shape.  Your build is interesting and nicely done.
kw

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2022, 03:53:11 PM »
Yes when I wrote this, the bag grip Hawken was the only one that came to my mind. That evolution, you would think came from something earlier?   I am somewhat intrigued by a flint halfstock build with similar grip. Was hoping here was a example out there to refer to.
kw
Build it anyway and don't worry about criticism from those who condemn every new build that's not a copy of somebody's relic.
Your parts,your money,go for it.
Bob Roller

Online Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2914
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2022, 04:04:07 PM »
I did this one a few years back. I was “supposed to” be a bag grip Hawken. Total hodge-podge of components. The customer was only interested in it as a shooter and didn’t really care about historic authenticity. It had a hot-rod Tebay Siler lock on it and backwards set trigger. Big heavy Douglas barrel in 40 cal.


Stop Marxism in America

Offline BruceH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2022, 04:18:11 PM »
KW, not sure what your intended use is.  Mine was to build match rifles.  I have built most of them with 34-36" barrels in 40 caliber except for one 50 caliber with a 1" barrel which came in around 8 1/2 lbs. and one 36 caliber 13/16" ATF which came in under 7 lbs.  One 40 was 13/16" across the flats and ended up weighing just under 7 lbs.  The one you see has a 40 caliber 7/8" barrel and weighs under 8 lbs.  My goal is a 36" long 40 caliber barrel with a completed weight of close to 10 pounds.  If I can find another Rice Match barrel meeting that description, that will be my next build.  Probably a 1" ATF.

I have used the Chambers Late Ketland lock and the Kibler SMR lock.  Both work great for these rifles.  I am using the Bivins single trigger and it is very light and crisp.  Pecatonica, MLB Supply and The Gun Works have the trigger guard.

Hope this helps.

Bruce

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2022, 04:33:11 PM »
There is a half stock pistol grip rifle by Wylie Higgins shown on page 136 of volume 1 of "Notes on Southern Long Rifles" by Jerry Noble. It's percussion. Several flintlock guns by Wylie Higgins are shown in volume 1 and volume 2. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to replicate a Wylie Higgins half stock pistol grip rifle in flint. Of course we're talking about Wylie Higgins here. All that bling might not be your style.
Bob

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7907
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2022, 05:10:42 PM »
The pictures of Bruce and Stoners rifles are comforting to me as I'm in the middle of such a project. A + or - 30 inch 66 cal. full stock flinter with a pistol grip. It will be some what along the lines of the W. Turvey rifle in RCA but with that pistol grip. Interesting discussion for me. Looks like nice work on those Bruce and Stoner rifles.

Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2022, 06:05:25 PM »
Thanks guys for the info. I have not decided any any particular style yet, just been kicking around this idea for a couple of days. Was curious what was out there both historical and contemporary. Have a blank and late English lock, a barrel decision comes next. Have to plan ahead for a winters build here in Montana as the winters are long and it will not be long in coming.......again! The Higgins and Turvey guns I will need to check out.

kw

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2022, 02:47:15 PM »
Can more pictures of these unusual muzzle loaders of American make be posted.The high end English types are seen and others would be interesting to some of us even if not the finest quality.Also,what is the advantage of the backward set trigger?? I was given a piece of black walnut that has been partially configured into a pistol grip and I think a muzzle loader of some kind,perhaps a "rook"rifle.I think the original intent was to restock a WW2 bring back of some sort and the forearm will accommodate a heavy barrel and the only fly in the ointment is the "Monte Carlo"butt stock but that may be alterable into a more acceptable shape for a muzzle loader.
Bob Roller

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2022, 09:10:57 PM »
 Dave Crocket was given a pistol gripped rifle as a gift. But, left it behind when he headed for Texas, allegedly because it was percussion, and a small caliber. The gun still exists and is one of the few from the period that isn’t a Hawken.

Hungry Horse

Offline BruceH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2022, 01:31:18 PM »
Bob, I have lost the few pictures of American made half stock, pistol grip rifles that I was able to find.  I can not seem to recover them.  They did not have the well defined pistol grip like the Swiss or English though.  More of a sweeping grip - kind of like the bag handle on the Hawken that Stoner shows.  My rifle is not an exact copy of any American rifle I found, but more of a mixture of Swiss Match rifles, Rigby's or Gibb's styles, with a small amount of American influence thrown in.  In other words, a fantasy gun.

In my opinion, the reverse/backwards - rear fire double set trigger has a slight advantage of firing hand placement.  It aids in keeping the firing hand/arm a little further to the rear and thereby keeps you from pushing the firing hand/elbow/shoulder forward and out in order to reach the front trigger.  I guess a more compact stance.  The same feel can be accomplished by adjusting the LOP, but something does feel better and seems more stable with the rear fire trigger.  An easy way to experience the difference is to shoulder a rifle with the standard double set trigger.  Simulate your firing with the front trigger and then simulate with firing the rear trigger.  I am able to get this same control/feel with my half stock builds with a single trigger.

Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2022, 02:17:07 PM »
"Dave Crocket was given a pistol gripped rifle " Wow, my interest is piqued! Surely a American 1830's flint, I would love to see a picture of it. Where is the rifle currently?
kw

Offline frankie

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2022, 07:00:39 PM »
I would really like to build one.

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2022, 03:18:02 PM »
Guys,

Not a rifle, a pistol grip smoothbore!  The shoulder stock can be removed.

Jim





Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2022, 03:25:24 PM »
Now I see where the US M1855 pistol carbine came from. Very Nice, wonder what niche market it was made for?
kw

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2022, 05:28:08 PM »
I believe stocked pistols were originally intended for cavalry. In theory... they would be shot from the saddle as a pistol... and, with shoulder stock attached, used as a carbine when dismounted.
Bob

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2022, 08:35:13 PM »
I scoured the web looking for Crockett"s pistol grip rifle but can't find it.I have a VERY foggy memory of seeing a picture but where is now the $99 question.
Bob Roller

Offline tooguns

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
  • I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2022, 04:07:35 PM »
here's a couple of Davy Crockett's rifle, I believe




host pictures online






« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 06:35:46 PM by tooguns »
It is best to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove any and all doubt....

Offline 45-110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Pistol grip rifles
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2022, 04:50:30 PM »
Amazing, different and somewhat peculiar. I would think though it would make for a fine off hand shooting rifle. Wonder where it is today?
kw