similarity of two buttplates - the Atchison Hawken and Philip Creamer rifles

[HighUintas]

I was looking through pictures of buttplates and noticed a similarity between the buttplates, primarily the tangs, of the Atchison Hawken rifle and the Philip Creamer rifle made for William Clark. They both have similar bands near the end of the tang, both have a flat along the length of the top and a similarly shaped (sort of squared) terminating points at the rear where the pieces would be riveted.

The Atchison rifle being built in 1836, the best date we know since it is engraved on the inlay, would be very late in Creamer's life as he passed sometime around 1840, but apparently worked for St. Louis Superintendency for Indian Affairs until around 1833. We don't know the date of manufacture of the Clark rifle. I suppose it is possible that Capt Atchison or the Hawken brothers may have seen Clark's rifle and thought that buttplate looked like a dandy so some features were used on Atchison's rifle buttplate.

These two buttplates are fairly unique, at least in my limited experience in research, and I haven't been able to find any others that are this similar.

Links for comparison:

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2018/06/copy-of-phillip-creamer-rifle-made-for.html

https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/52461-1-397/


 Do you experts think there is anything to the similarity?

[RAT]

To my eye's they both look like commercial castings. I remember seeing one other silver buttplate with an iron heel added, but I can't remember where. If I have time this weekend I'll dig through my files.

You're first link is to a modern copy of the Creamer rifle. We should really be looking at the original for comparison. Photos of the original were posted to the forum around 2016 I believe. A search should be able to find them. I think the museum information is that the Creamer rifle dates to around 1825.

Here's something most people don't notice about the Atchison rifle. The buttplate is tilted downwards. In other words, the comb line of the buttplate extension isn't in line with the comb line of the stock. The "ETC" rifle at the Montana Historical Society has this same feature. Some, including an un-named author of a certain book has mistakenly stated that the stock has a Roman nose profile. This is incorrect. I placed a straight edge on the comb of the "ETC" rifle when I examined it in 2017 and can confirm the comb is straight. The buttplate being tilted away from the straight edge confirms the feature. The Roman nose appearance is an illusion. Unfortunately I didn't have a chance to examine the Atchision rifle when it was still in Cody. A friend talked about doing it, but we missed the opportunity when the rifle was sold.

I've seen poor photos of a Sam Hawken rifle made in either Maryland or Ohio that appears to have the buttplate tilt. If I ever get a chance to examine it I''ll try to confirm it. If the tilt is there, we could attribute the stocking of both the Atchison and "ETC" rifles to Sam.

[HighUintas]

Thanks, Bob.

You're right... we should be looking at pictures of the original Creamer. Here they are, courtesy of Louie, courtesy of whoever originally took them:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cQolYR8fA2vZldiVtSiKrihK9eS5umVa/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FU2zK92eFYriUEqBWnBKeYp4WZsCtV88/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_zlVmsRN7R8624qWHHbdbmx9spuV9i-M/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NB2Gk-Mk6I-Uhn8sSBK4K8aRlvZ1bcfY/view?usp=sharing

If you zoom in, you can see the seam between the extension the the butt. You can also see the rivet in the picture viewed from above.

Your note about a silver buttplate with an iron heel added is interesting... looking at the Atchison photos again, I can see a distinct line on the heel where it appears it was added! And yes, that Atchison plate looks cast.   The Creamer rifle, I believe, is all iron mounted. I do not know about the inlays though.

[45-110]

Are there any flint half stock rifles out there made by Creamer? My interest is piqued after seeing this marvelous full stock.
kw

[HighUintas]

The only Creamer rifles I know if are the Clark rifle, a rifle that is very plain and has JAB also marked on it which some people say means Jim Bridger took part in making it although his middle name was Felix, and then a rifle that is in  the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum. I have been in contact with the curator there and hopefully he'll be able to get me pictures of this one soon.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kSO0IfGVdLRe91nNBtEhOPuSlaAzxQL5/view?usp=drivesdk

[Bob Roller]

Some years ago I made a lock for Bob Browner for a Creamer pistol,a cap lock and he furnished the plate and maybe the hammer.I care not for crescent butt plates but they are eye catchers for sure.
Bob Roller

[RAT]

I have to apologize... I really blew it with the Creamer rifle. I took a quick look at my Creamer files and see it's iron mounted and the buttplate is forged in 2 pieces with a brass brazed seem. I believe it was fabricated in the Creamer shop.

I still think the Atchison buttplate was purchased. I haven't had a chance to check all my files for the other silver buttplate with iron heel. It's a 4-drawer file cabinet. It might take awhile. If my memory is correct... which is a really big IF... it wasn't on a Hawken rifle.

If someone wanted to make a conjectural flint Hawken, the Creamer rifle would be a much better example to follow than to stick a flint lock on an 1860's style Hawken. That's a real pet peeve of mine.

I have photos of 8 different Creamer rifles in my files. All were full stock. He appears to have been a prolific maker of English style half stock pistols. I didn't count all the different pistols in my files. I believe "a lot" covers it pretty well. It was a very popular style of pistol in America during the first quarter of the 19th century.

[mr. no gold]

Bob, do you have any photos of Creamer pistols, signed or unsigned? There is an individual who is seeking to locate one or both of the long missing Jedediah Smith pistols, recovered at the Santa Fe trade fair, after his death. There is a good chance that they could have been made by Creamer, who apparently was in St. Louis at the time. Thanks! Enjoy your knowledgable posts very much.
Dick

[RAT]

The photos were scrounged from many sources over the years... including the books...

"Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" by Garavaglia & Worman
"Maryland Longrifles" by Hartzler & Whisker
"Gunsmiths of Maryland - Firelock Colonial Period Through the Breech-Loading Patent Models Featuring Longrifles" by Hartzler & Whisker
"Gunmakers of Illinois 1683-1900" by Johnson

Some were also found online. Just do a Google search for "Philip Creamer pistols" and click on "Images".

[RAT]

A photo of the Jedediah Smith pistol appears on page 89 of "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865". The caption states...

"Percussion pistol, converted from flintlock, carried by the explorer and mountain man Jedediah Smith. It's current location, following it's theft a few years ago from a West Coast museum, is unfortunately not known. (Courtesy Pacific Center for Western Historical Studies, University of the Pacific)"

The text doesn't state who made the pistol. The photo isn't of high quality, but it doesn't look like a Creamer to me. His work seemed to be higher quality. All but one of the Creamer pistol photos I have show the barrel keys entering from the lock side. In other words, the key head is on the lock side. The Smith pistol has the end of the key on the lock side, which indicates the head is on the opposite side. If it did have Creamer's signature on it, I believe the authors would make note of it. They write quite extensively about Creamer.

Here is the entire text written about the Smith pistol...

"Jedediah Smith was carring (this typo is in the book) a silver-mounted pair of percussion pistols, made along the classic dueling lines, when Comanches killed him on the Cimarron River in 1831."

Maybe you can obtain better photos by contacting the university...

https://www.pacific.edu/

[HighUintas]

I have to apologize... I really blew it with the Creamer rifle. I took a quick look at my Creamer files and see it's iron mounted and the buttplate is forged in 2 pieces with a brass brazed seem. I believe it was fabricated in the Creamer shop.

I still think the Atchison buttplate was purchased. I haven't had a chance to check all my files for the other silver buttplate with iron heel. It's a 4-drawer file cabinet. It might take awhile. If my memory is correct... which is a really big IF... it wasn't on a Hawken rifle.

If someone wanted to make a conjectural flint Hawken, the Creamer rifle would be a much better example to follow than to stick a flint lock on an 1860's style Hawken. That's a real pet peeve of mine.

I have photos of 8 different Creamer rifles in my files. All were full stock. He appears to have been a prolific maker of English style half stock pistols. I didn't count all the different pistols in my files. I believe "a lot" covers it pretty well. It was a very popular style of pistol in America during the first quarter of the 19th century.

Bob, I beg of you to please either share the Creamer rifle pictures and information you have here, or PM me. I have been looking for all the information on him and his rifle work that I can find.

[RAT]

Most of it is in paper... photocopied over several years from the books mentioned. It includes both pictures and bio information. Sorry... It's just not in electronic post-friendly format. You'll need to find copies of the books to get what you're looking for. I don't own most of the books myself. I got them through various libraries. The only book from the above list that I own is "Firearms of the American West" by Garavaglia and Worman (I have both volumes).

If you're looking for photos of English half stock dueling style pistols. A google search will turn up pages and pages of them.

Shelby Gallien wrote an article for the April 2015 issue of Muzzle Blasts about a pair of half stock dueling pistols made by James and Samuel Gilston of Fayette County Kentucky. He makes note of the similarity to the work of Creamer. Maybe he can provide you with a copy. My scanner isn't working or I'd send you a copy (something about the upgrade to Windows 11). He also writes about them in his book "Kentucky Gunmakers". They appear on the back dust jacket of volume 1.

The photos I have of the Creamer/William Clark rifle I got from this forum. A search should give you what you want. Lots of photos were posted. I'll see if I can find the post and link to it for you.

I did look through my files for the other rifle I saw with an iron heel applied to a silver buttplate. I couldn't find it... so maybe it's my memory that's flawed. Very possible, but I'm pretty sure I saw it someplace. My first thought is that it was a Wiley Higgins rifle. He liked silver. Or perhaps Jacob Kunz.

 

[RAT]

Here you go...
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=39426.msg381755#msg381755
Unfortunately this was in the days when stuff was posted to photbucket. Looks like the photos are no longer available. Contact the person who made the original post. Maybe he can provide you with photos.

Here's a post about the pistols Creamer made for Andrew Jackson...
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21952.msg209409#msg209409

More stuff...
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=39231.msg379622#msg379622


The search also came up with this post...
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=65449.msg656793#msg656793
I didn't know about this book. I must have missed that post.

[RAT]

A Google search for "Philip Creamer rifle" came up with several images. So did "Philip Creamer Pistols".

[louieparker]

For those who haven't seen it, here is a photo of a Creamer pistol.   It's probably the biggest one he made. It's a big gun. The inlay is plated. (As I think it was on the rifle also.)  The iron ram rod is correct.  There is a belt hook on the other side,
As someone said the Butt plate on the rifle is unique.   If you are going to copy it, you must get it as close as you can. It gave me a few problems.   But I would work on it a bit and the let it lay awhile and go back and look. Then repeat the process........  Louie
 

[mr. no gold]

Great pistol, Louie! Thank you for posting it. This appears to be a fairly early gun and as an antecedent to the 'Smith' gun, it does not fit. The latter had a regular butt, more like South or English pieces and no guard spur. In fact, a Hawken hand gun was on display at the last Las Vegas Show and that gun more closely resembled the gun under consideration, here. It was marked to the Hawken shop and was somewhat small. It had a patent breech and I do not recall if the 'Smith' gun did, or not.
Dick

[Clowdis]

To me the 2 buttplates are completely different. The Creamer looks like the detail was cast in from the beginning and on the same plane as the surface but on the Hawken it appears that the detail was filed in after the buttplate was shaped and is below the surface.

[HighUintas]

They are very different, Clowdis. I didn't realize how different they were until Bob chimed in here. Just at a quick look, the return is similar in style. But, I've not seen other rifles from that general time period that look similar. So, I just thought it was interesting that they looked similar and were built in the same geographic region.