American rifle in upcoming British auction

[JV Puleo]

A few years ago I posted some pictures of two long rifles in an upcoming British auction and was asked, if I say any more, to do so again. One just popped up...

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/holts-auctioneers/catalogue-id-srholt10018/lot-5fb3d3e3-d2f6-485f-8761-aefc00f53464?utm_source=auction-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=auction-alert&utm_content=lot-image-link

Holt's is a well established firm with a web site so you can probably find the pictures there as well. I know little enough about these to hazard a guess as to its origins but American rifles do come up in England, some of which went back there with British travelers in the 19th century.

[Jacob_S_P]

I'm on it!

[backsplash75]

another fixer upper

https://auctions.1818auctioneers.co.uk/auctions/8292/sr1810707/lot-details/a6cacd00-868e-49c1-bac7-aef900b1e990

[Tanselman]

Does anyone know what is involved, and how difficult it is, to have an antique rifle such as two above, shipped out of the UK back to the USA? I had one shipped out of Canada two years ago, and it worked out OK with only a few small headaches along the way. But I'm guessing shipping from the UK is a very different situation.

Shelby Gallien

[120RIR]

Regardless of what happens on the country-to-country level, I contacted the auction house regarding their posted shipping policy that says they won't ship "edged weapons and guns".  I suspect despite the fact this piece is around 200+- years old, in the UK it still counts as a "gun" to them and quite possibly in a legal sense per Brit law. 

[BradBrownBess]

As someone who has done this before - I bought a 1730's French Liege Made pistol from Thomas Del Mar. The Auction House is world known and was incredibly polite and helpful as they could be,... I stress could be. In other words, all they could do is give me the name of some local packers and shippers to try.
For that pistol I got 5 responses. 3 said "it's a gun we won't touch it no matter when it was made - even 1730". I tried "Can you take the lock out and ship in 2 boxes". "No" was the answer, "just the barrel is listed as a deadly weapon, and we will not ship it". Two quotes came back at $1200+ and $1600+. Yep - around US $1500 to get a flintlock pistol here.
Now I did call gun dealer friends who put me in touch with a fine shotgun dealer here in the US. He does about 4 shipments a year - bulk. I was able to get a shipper from him who would pick up, pack, and ship for $680 dollars. I was ready to have the auction house keep the gun and resale for me. So I went with the shipper charging the $680 - I was lucky because they don't ship often - only about once a month. I was close to ship date - about 1.5 weeks. Still, everything from the shipper got hung up - the whole shipment - so it was delayed by 6 weeks, and this is BEFORE Covid.
I also took a friend's advice and paid $185 for a customs broker here in the US. Thank goodness I did, or I probably would still be trying to get the gun. The paperwork is heavy and if 1 letter or period is suspicious or out of place and you can forget it.
I still had to drive to the airport over 1 hour away and pick up the pistol from the huge FedEx warehouse (they were the carrier). I was there for 2 hours while they hunted it down and went over all my customs papers.

In the end I did get a beautiful gun for about what it would sell for here through an auction, but I added a lot of stress and hassle.

I would NOT TRY to get a long rifle to the US unless I had a best friend in the shipping or bulk gun exporting business that would help me and let it piggyback in their bulk shipment - still add 50% on to the hammer price just for shipping and fees.

UK Auctions also charge enormous fees, including VAT tax - so hammer price, plus buyer prem, plus VAT, plus shipping you will double the final price or more.

I have tried many angles to get to great arms in Europe, but it's getting almost impossible. Germany is the easiest - I bought an early 1600's WheelLock rifle and the seller (dealer) paid my shipping and handled customs. It was smooth but did have a few US customs hiccups that required me fill out 2 more forms. About 6 weeks delivery time total.

Swords have never been a problem for me - but I have not bought one in 3 or 4 years. ByGoneBlades is a super dealer - last I dealt with.

Take my word - just get the thought out of your mind unless you know the piece is a rare, one-of-a-kind, rifle that has to be retrieved at any cost. Then plan 6 months to a year and a LOT of money and hassle.

[JV Puleo]

I confess I've never tried to ship a firearm from the UK. Until COVID I was usually there every year so I'd just have it sent to a friend's address and bring it back with me. That has it's attendent problems too...ALL because practically no one at the airport actually knows the law. That's true of the British airports as well but they haven't proven as unrelenting stupid as the American ones. On the occasions where I was able to find a customs officer who did know the rules, I had no problem at all. But, I always print out both the UK Home Office regulations and the US Law and put copies in the case with the gun.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I too have had no problems shipping to and from Germany.  Everywhere else:  yikes. 

I built two rifles for a couple of guys in Norway many years ago and ended up having to send them down to Philly to a guy who was shipping cars over in a container and - as I understand it - he basically stuck them in one of the cars.  It was the only way to get them there, or so I was told.  All I know is that I sent them down to Philly; one of the guys in Norway handled the rest after me going back and forth with usps, ups and fedex alternately for over a year.  Just a giant mess.

[lexington1]

I have had a few muskets shipped from the UK and never had a problem until the covid, when I had a Marine/Militia musket held in shipping for about a month and a half. I eventually got it ok, but it did take a while. One of my wheel lock locks from Poland was held up on their side for a few weeks also.

[backsplash75]

Can't speak of Europe, but I have shipped out of the UK a few times, most recently last month. Generally speaking, the decent auction houses like Del Mar will give you a name or two of reputable shippers/exporters they work with. Keeping in mind a 300 year old flintlock can ship door to door domestically as a non firearm antique both here and in the UK, but the only way it can get over here via air freight is to go through a firearm shipper as if it is say, a modern shotgun or rifle. The firearms shippers will send it to a customs hub at a US airport, you go sign for it and pick up at the hub or hire an agent to do the same for you. Some of the UK shippers will now punt your gun to a USA stateside ffl who can then forward your non firearm via normal ground means once they get it from customs. Expect to pay at least 500-800 GBP to get it to you in America from England. Expect it to take several weeks, if not months. Bit of a pain, but it is possible.