Unmarked Springfield M1816?

[tom76pate]

I recently purchased this old flintlock from a maintenance guy at work. As far as I can figure, it appears to be a Springfield M816 that was maybe modified at some point.  The barrel is 33" long, it's a .69 caliber, and I know that the hammer screw is not original.   It shoots great, but there is no maker's mark on the outside of the lock so I'm not sure if it's a Springfield or not.  It has the eagle head stamp on the barrel.   I gave $500 for it so hopefully "I didn't get hurt."  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[WESTbury]

Hi Tom,

The barrel is indeed a Springfield barrel, you can tell by the proof stamps at the breech. Probably the buttplate, remains of the stock and furniture are Springfield as well. The "EB" initials on the front triggerguard extension are those of Elizur Bates. The lock is a problem but it has an incorrect pan and the cock, battery and battery spring are not original.

Below are photos of and original M1816 Type III Springfield lock of the period.

[tom76pate]

Thank you sir.  I think I'll keep it anyway and just shoot it.  The hammer spring (if that's what it's called) is very strong so hopefully it's not because of the wrong springs in the lock.  I love shooting muzzleloaders, but never really had the budget for anything but the Italian replicas and a Traditions kit I built.  Thanks again.

[WESTbury]

Thank you sir.  I think I'll keep it anyway and just shoot it.  The hammer spring (if that's what it's called) is very strong so hopefully it's not because of the wrong springs in the lock.  I love shooting muzzleloaders, but never really had the budget for anything but the Italian replicas and a Traditions kit I built.  Thanks again.

Tom,
If you enjoy shooting the rifle and get satisfaction from that, then your $500 was well spent.

[Bigmon]

Westbury,
Do you think it had been converted to percussion, and then converted back??  Since you say the Pan is wrong, must have been removed.  And what ever for if not converted?
I have one of each, a re-converted flint as well as a Civil War configuration percussion.
I would not charge very heavily, they are nearing 200 years old!

[JTR]

A picture of the touch hole area might answer reconversion or not.

I've heard tell that back some time ago, the hammers and/or frizzens were removed so the kids could play Cowboys and Indians with the guns, and not have any chance of actually shooting each other.

Hmmm, I'm getting old, and I'll bet playing Cowboys and Indians isn't politically correct any longer.....

Even in it's current condition, that gun is worth a good bit more than 500 bucks!

John

[WESTbury]

Westbury,
Do you think it had been converted to percussion, and then converted back??

I believe it was percussion altered in the early 1850's probably at one of the Federal Arsenals. I state because of the alphanumeric stamps "A21" on the lock, top of the barrel, in the wood to the rear of the breechplug tang, and buttplate tang near the "US".

In the 1851-1853 time period many thousands of M1816 Flintlock Muskets were percussion altered at both National Armories and Federal Arsenals at Watertown, Watervliet, Allegheny, Washington, St Louis, North Carolina, Frankford, & Kennebec. All of these facilities had a marking system, ususally alphanumeric, that was unique to each Arsenal or National Armory. Just at Springfield 86,565 M1816 and 26,841 M1840 muskets were altered. I would estimate that 99% of all Springfield M1816 and M1840 Muskets were altered. These were all brand new unissued muskets manufactured since 1832.

Springfield Type III M1816 and M1840 Flintlock muskets in their original flintlock configuration are far scarcer that original condition Kentucky Golden Age Rifles.

Check out Pete Schmidt's book U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets Vol 2 to confirm what I've written above.

[WESTbury]

Tom,

Looking at the interior finish of the lockplate as well as the assembly marking on the various internal components, I would say that the lock is from a contractor made M1816. It does not look "Springfieldish" to me. They were quite psychotic at Springfield on quality.

[tom76pate]

Gentlemen,

  Thank you very much for the information.   I will include a photo of the touch hole this afternoon (I'm at work.) Respectfully, it doesn't appear to have been altered (welded and then drilled out again. )  However, I don't have the knowledge about such things as you men do.  My friend has been a gunsmith for 40 years and he helped me load it and shoot it.  We used 60 grains of BP and used a .62" patched ball.  Sure was fun!

[WESTbury]

  Sure was fun!

That is really what counts!

Would be great to see the touchole.

When these were altered to percussion at the National Armories and Federal Arsenals, the method was called the Belgian Plan. A nipple was screwed into the top of the barrel. These Federal facilities did not use the screwed in drum on the side of the barrel.

[Robert Wolfe]

Westbury - Not to hijack the thread but who did the "drum" conversions on these? I picked up an orphan barrel was drum-converted (and bored out, shortened). I reconverted it and used it to build a fowling gun. The barrel is dated 1820 or 1830.   

[WESTbury]

Westbury - Not to hijack the thread but who did the "drum" conversions on these? I picked up an orphan barrel was drum-converted (and bored out, shortened). I reconverted it and used it to build a fowling gun. The barrel is dated 1820 or 1830.

From what I understand, some of the States that had flintlock muskets issued to them under the 1808 Militia Act had the muskets altered in the State Arsenals. George Moller covered much of this in his Vol 3 of US Military Shoulder Arms.

Below is a copy of page 159 of the 1850 second edition of the Ordnance Manual detailing the Belgian Plan for altering flintlock muskets at Federal facilities and armories.

[Robert Wolfe]

Thanks

[tom76pate]

[tom76pate]

I've uploaded some photos of the touch hole and barrel.  Also, would somebody be willing to dare to give me a rough estimate of the value of this ole' beauty?  I plan on keeping this thing forever and SHOOT IT!  There's a traditional muzzleloader only club about 30 miles south of me here in Indiana.   It's called Buck Creek Muzzleloaders and I can't wait to show off this beautiful piece of history to my friends!  Thanks once again.

[WESTbury]

Tom,

Judging your photo of the touch-hole area of the barrel, it appears that the barrel may indeed be in original condition as far as the touch hole. Unfortunately, the barrel looks to have been cut back somewhat. These barrels were 42" long with a bayonet lug set back 1-1/4" from the muzzle.

As far as value, that is very subjective, and we do not as a rule estimate values on the ALR.

Have fun shooting the gun.

[tom76pate]

I appreciate the update and I apologize for not realizing that it was against the rules to ask about the value.   

[JTR]

Just do a search on your computer. Here's an unmolested example for $2100. https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles---flintlock/u-s--springfield-m1816-flintlock-musket-w-bayonets.cfm?gun_id=101068639
There're several other examples found by searching under Unmarked Springfield M1816.
John

[WESTbury]

Just do a search on your computer. Here's an unmolested example for $2100. https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles---flintlock/u-s--springfield-m1816-flintlock-musket-w-bayonets.cfm?gun_id=101068639
There're several other examples found by searching under Unmarked Springfield M1816.
John

I would pass on that 1822 dated musket on Guns International. it has a Model 1840 front band and a Harpers Ferry barrel. The battery spring is not original.

[tom76pate]

Good deal.  Also, I made a mistake in my earlier post.   I shot a .662" ball not a .620" ball.  Looking for a mold online now.