Early English trade gun marked Williams

[rich pierce]

These pictures come without dimensions or much description. They popped up on another forum. I asked the O.P. there and he said they weren’t his but all belonged together. Story is it’s from about 1720, pre-Carolina gun (type G) or just an early one. Depends if you’re a lumper or a splitter. No additional data available.

[bp]

Cool. Lock seems unusual but I am a neophyte.

[wormey]

That lock looks Dutch to me and not original to the gun.  I can see moulding in front of the lock, but none to the rear nor top and bottom.  Everything else looks spot on.  Been looking for an original one of those for 50 years and just found one.  A friend of mine 4 houses up the street had it.  The forestock had been shortened and made professionally into a half stock, but I ran it back out.  Light and handy.  I like the gun you found very much, but the lock is just wrong.  It should have 2 wedding bands.  How long is the barrel?  Proof marks are spot on.  Any engraving on the buttplate tang?  Take a look at Hamilton`s book Colonial Frontier Guns.  Wormey

[James Rogers]

I assume it is considered a Williams by the barrel maker's mark? It looks like it may be Thomas Williams? It would probably be of a 1736-1740 make? He got his freedom in the company in 1736 and was contracting with Hudson's Bay a couple years later. Can anyone tell if the proofs are London Co?

[rich pierce]

As I said, I have only pictures.

[James Rogers]

Found it on the other sight and posted a the questions.

[alacran]

Regardless of the particulars, the comb seems to be parallel to the bore. This would make it a gun that would be pleasant to shoot.

[oldtravler61]

   Rich thanks for posting this. Lately I have been getting really interested in these old Fowlers and trade guns...

[Levy]

The State of Florida has a Williams trade gun in its archaeological collections that I worked on before I retired in 2011.  It was recovered in the Suwannee River in 2005 by a river diver.  The lock was readable and signed Williams.  The barrel was 46 1/2" and in 24 gauge.  It was loaded and had a ball of wadding in the barrel that looked like palmetto or palm fiber.  The stock remained from the wrist escutcheon to just past the first ramrod pipe.  The ramrod pipe was ribbed but thin brass material and was inlet into the barrel channel and splayed out to hold it to the stock.  The brass serpent was intact, but the engraving was eroded away by the sand and water.  the wrist escutcheon was cast with two nails incorporated into it.  The breech of the barrel was 1 1/8" in diameter.  The first transition band was 10 1/2" from the breech.  If there was a second one farther down the barrel, I couldn't tell due to corrosion.  No trigger guard or butt plate were recovered.  I had Ed Rayl copy the deminsions that I sent to him and he did a very nice job on it.  James Levy 

[rich pierce]

James, I remember that one. Quite a find!

[Clark Badgett]

That lock definitely does not look English. I would guess French.

[jrb]

James, I remember that one. Quite a find!

Rich, the pictures of Mr. Levi's that were posted here a few years ago of the Suwannee type G he conserved, are gone from the original post but i "saved" them to my computer, if you are able to put them back in the thread from what i saved i can email them to you? Or if it's easier, i could just go to the original thread and post them in a separate post? there's about a dozen of them.

[rich pierce]

James, I remember that one. Quite a find!

Rich, the pictures of Mr. Levi's that were posted here a few years ago of the Suwannee type G he conserved, are gone from the original post but i "saved" them to my computer, if you are able to put them back in the thread from what i saved i can email them to you? Or if it's easier, i could just go to the original thread and post them in a separate post? there's about a dozen of them.

Either way! Hopefully we will get it restored. The thread, that is!

[backsplash75]

Fantastic stuff! Thanks for posting. Like Wormey I think it is a replaced Dutch lock, and like Wormey, I've been looking for one for years (sadly my neighbors don't own one).

[Jim Kibler]

The lock may be legit.  The fact that it is similar to French and Dutch counterparts is to be expected given the period and quality level of the piece.  The French designs of the flintlock from the late 17th century basically formed English style. 

Jim

[backsplash75]

For what it's worth, the fully formed concept of a "Carolina gun" without further description being necessary for contemporaries is used in the Anglo world as early as 1738, with the exception of the lock this gun appears to fit that profile. Von Reck naively depicts something along these lines around the same time. Sadly the references to "Indian Trading guns" going to both Virginia and South Carolina in the 1705-35 time frame that I am aware of don't get into spectacular detail but there is some kind of generally accepted common type suitable for Native customer's market desires that early (Wm Byrd's papers mention "18 Indian guns 4 foot per the [illeg...barrel???]" as early as 1689, his 1684 orders for "guns" as part of an order of "Indian Goods" specify dog locks in that era). The lock on this gun, if English is what, maybe 1690-1715ish? IF the barrel mark attribution/dating for Williams is correct then I'd say the lock is likely a replacement. The early restocked gun by Sanders at the MOFT has a similar lock and may be as late as 1725, of course it has a different sideplate and etc. Devil's advocates might point out that everything on these is very retrograde, but the sideplate certainly is close to one from Frederica that is from the 1740s.

[Jim Kibler]

Everything on a trade gun like this is retrograde.  The lock style and the sideplate!  The serpentine sideplate showed up in Paris in probably the mid 1650’s.  So I don’t think the style of this lock is unreasonable given the time the builder was working.

The serpentine sideplate was used well into the 19th century.  I’m sure convex locks were used on trade guns approaching the turn of the 18th century, when they were going out of fashion 40 years earlier on top guns.

[Clark Badgett]

Everything on a trade gun like this is retrograde.  The lock style and the sideplate!  The serpentine sideplate showed up in Paris in probably the mid 1650’s.  So I don’t think the style of this lock is unreasonable given the time the builder was working.

The serpentine sideplate was used well into the 19th century.  I’m sure convex locks were used on trade guns approaching the turn of the 18th century, when they were going out of fashion 40 years earlier on top guns.

The convex locks were used into the mid 19th century until lack of availability forced the use of 1853 Enfield styles.