Builds....where to start?

[Ben McCormick]

Hi all,

Brand new to this forum but not new to flintlocks. Grew up in Wayne County, PA behind a T/C Hawken 50. I've hunted with it quite successfully the past 15 years and still love it but I find myself wanting something more "meaningful" If that's the word

I'd like to build (well, most likely semi-build) a longrifle. I've compiled a list of specs the past few years and I'll be honest up front......my imaginary rifle will not be historically correct. Is that a sin?

The lines and shape of the Southern Mountain/Tennessee (SM/T) rifle stocks really catch my eye. However, so does the brass furniture on my T/C, unlike the iron furniture on the SM/Ts.

I hunt deer/black bear here in PA but someday I'd like to chase an elk or other big game so .50 or .54 would be preferable. However, I understand they're not common calibers in a SM/T.

That all being said........as far as lock, stock, and barrel are concerned--which do I start with first?

Deluxe siler, golden age, or late ketland with a rainproof pan?

I'd like to cut a cherry or maple blank off the farm and send it out to have it made into a SM/T but where would I send it?

Straight octagon barrel with a breech plug and tenons for ease and assurance of a good cleaning......also with a twist rate that maxi-hunter or buffalo bullets would prefer over PRB.


Other than not being HC, do any of you guys think there are functional problems/cons with this blueprint for a hunting scenario? Just looking for some advice on how and where to start.

I apologize about the length. Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to what knowledge some of you modern mountain men may impart.

Merry Christmas,
Ben from PA

[smylee grouch]

If your looking for opinions you should find several here. Mine, for get the bullet and use a PRB of 54 or 58. A straighter wider flatter but style with a 36-40 inch swamped barrel. Oh and Merry Christmas and welcome to the forum. 

[Berksrifle]

 I agree with at least a .54 cal. with patched round ball. If you insist on a bullet, look into a barrel with a gain twist. You might have the best of two worlds.

 Ken

[mikeyfirelock]

Build the gun you want and that fits your needs.   There is no need to replicate a style or particular rifle.    Decide what will make the rifle fulfill your needs and proceed accordingly.

[Bill Raby]

Go with round ball instead of bullets. Swamped barrels are much nicer than straight ones. Breech plugs are not removed for cleaning.

[flehto]

My deer/elk/bear rifle is a .54 w/ a PRB and have shot deer and elk w/ mine, but never  hunted black  bear. A .54 PRB yields a flatter trajectory than a conical w/  which early on  I've shot borh  deer and elk. So my preference is a .54  PRB......Fred

[Nordnecker]

Ben, I’m almost jealous of you. You have an interest in a subject and have a whole world of learning ahead of you. You have come to the right place. Sit back in a comfortable chair and read every thread on this forum about every subject that interests you. Check out the library. I’m sure that you will find that you can’t possibly imagine all of the creative details that have been used by the long rifle builders of the past- and present.

This can take a LOOOOONG time. But, in short order you will figure out at least some direction to go with building your first.

[rich pierce]

Some folks find that the narrow hooked buttplate of most SMRs is a torture device when used with heavy loads in bigger calibers. The aficionados will say those experiencing pain are doing it wrong. On the other hand everybody is built differently and must mount a rifle instinctively in hunting situations. I’d not pick a .54 bullet shooting gun that has a narrow hooked buttplate. I’d say spend a day at a range shooting one before you make or buy one. I know that’s not always possible.

I’d compromise and build a gun like this one. It’s not the classic late Southern Mountain rifle but has nice architecture. If you ignore the sweet patchbox and carving and inlays you still have a nice looking gun that should be comfortable to shoot. There are more pix on a CD sold by the KRA Kentucky Rifle Association.

[Daniel Coats]

.54 patched round ball over 80 grains works perfectly on everything from ground squirrels to moose. 38-in swamped octagon barrel plus or minus 2 in will make a rifle that handles like a fine trap gun quick to point and aim. Flintlock ignition of course!

[Bob Roller]

Build the gun you want and that fits your needs.   There is no need to replicate a style or particular rifle.    Decide what will make the rifle fulfill your needs and proceed accordingly.

My thoughts as well.I have made a few rifles but no claims to being a gunMAKER. I like the classic English half
stock flintlock rifle in 54 or 58 caliber one inch across the flats and 34 to 36 inches long with a late Ketland lock from Chambers or Kibler. I finished a gun started by ?? and it was a 58 caliber with my version of the many styles of a Ketland lock.I made locks for decades and stopped in 2019 and now on a once in a while basis make a double set trigger for Hawken or the long rifles.I am one of the geezers here and now 86 andthere are a few others a bit older that are still active.Good luck with any project youstart.

Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

  Ben if you can try and find a few people who will let you shoot theirs. If you can't do that. Try attending gun shows and with permission shoulder a few guns and see what style fits you.
  But get the best lock and barrel ( kit or custom) you can afford or build. My personal big game gun is a 54 with a 46 inch Getzs barrel. It's a Lancaster style with a wide but plate. Handles quite well for Michigan swamps.
  But what works for us might not work for you.
  Welcome to the forum...!

[Dphariss]

If I were looking to build a 54, with your experience level I would look to a Kibler Longrifles Colonial or a Woodsrunner. I find the fron of the comb on the Colonial is a little high for me. But this is not hard to fix.

Just use a round ball,  the conicals are greatly overrated. They were not used to any extent back in the day in hunting rifles and for good reason(s). If you want to shoot a 300-500 gr projectile then get a 62-72  caliber English style sporting rifle with a 66” to 80” twist and a good RB mould for it. A .66 caliber RB (430 gr +-) will kill better to 150 yards than a 400 gr 50-54 conical will. And it will do it at FAR less beech pressure.
If you were to build a SMR in 50-54 and then shoot heavy bullets with a charge of powder that will give decent trajectory to 100-120 yards its not going to be a lot of fun to shoot (nasty comes to mind) and if built to the lines of such a rifle its not likely the stock is going to tolerate the recoil well either.
The modern conical ML bullet was RE-INVENTED (yes it was tried in the 19th c) for a couple of reason. First when the “Maxi-Ball” was invented the gunwrites for the slick paper shooing press were completely clueless and told everyone that the read their $#@* that the RB did not have enough “energy” to kill anything (plus TC was buying advertising). Not understanding that at the velocity that BP produces “energy” is meaningless. A ML hunting rifle needs three things. 1. A flat trajectory to 100-120 yards. 2. Adequate penetration. 3. A ball diameter suitable for the game being hunted, for deer 45 is a good minimum. Remembering that 44 and 50 caliber rifles were very, very common even in Colonial times in North America. In my experience unless very heavy bone is encountered (like the humerus on an Elk) will give about 30” of penetration. If you think that the pure lead ball is too soft then harden them. Barrels with narrow lands like the Green Mountains, will load easily with wheel weight alloy balls and they shoot just as well as pure lead and will penetrate about as well as a conical at typical hunting distances. When I did baffle board testing with 54 maxi many years ago I found they gave about 30% more penetration than my RB load at 100 yards, Shooting less than a box full, maybe 15 rounds, also burnt out the nipple on my percussion rifle so it would blow the hammer back even with a RB load.
The failures of the early ML Conicals for hunting are well documented by Greener, Forsythe, Sir Samuel Baker etc. But most people who buy a ML just for the ML season after they read about it in Guns and Ammo have never heard of these people.
Sorry for the rant but this is one of my pet peeves. And I have significant experience hunting with BPCRs too so I understand lead bullets and BP very well. I have also shot 500 gr bullets from a ML I built for the purpose and played around with pick bullets in another rifle I built. But I did not hunt with them.
Shot placement and penetration kills, energy is just a number.  There have been African Elephant killed with 22 LR after all, from what I have read.
Oh. If you read “The Oregon Trail” By Francis Parkman (hardly a hack writer) you will read  of  his guide killing 2 buffalo at 175 yards with 2 shots from what are now called “plains” rifles.  If we read “Pondoro” by John Taylor we will read of his killing 13 “good bulls” (African Elephant) and several Rhino with a 10 bore ML smoothbore using hardened lead RBs with, IIRC, 5  or 5 1/2 drams of BP.  Yet we would be led to believe by “experts” that a 45-54 caliber RB will not kill a deer that might weight 200 pounds on the hoof. BECAUSE the makers of conicals buy advertising in the rag they write for, yeah I have written a few magazine articles over the years too. I know how it works…

[smylee grouch]

An Excellent post Dan and my opinion also. 

[Mauser06]

I'd highly recommend handling various rifles.  There are a lot of options if you're in PA still....


I will tell you my story....


I thought I wanted basically an RMC Accusporter....but thought I'd "build" one a bit cheaper.  I already had a RPL lock and a Davis Deerslayer trigger in my TC Hawken...

Found one of the last Green Mountain fast twist 50s with fiber optic sights.  Found a 1" TC Tang.  Ordered steel furniture from Track of The Wolf.   Ordered a TC replacement stock from a vendor. 


The stock came and I realized I bit off more than I thought.  Replacement...in my mind...meant finish the wood and screw everything together.   I was wrong.  It required some a fair bit of work. 

It sat in my closet a while.  Then I decided to go for it. 


In the end, I put together a functional rifle.  It's very accurate and very deadly.  I've killed my biggest PA buck to date with it actually. 


After that, I wanted me a turkey flintlock. 

Found a 62cal Colerain turkey choked longrifle for sale on here.  I bought it and fell in love with longrifles.  And I haven't looked back. 


Although I thought I was putting together "the ultimate " flintlock for ME....I learned I really love long rifles...specially early styled long rifles. 


So, I'd recommend handling some different styles and seeing what you actually prefer.   

[mgbruch]

I will reiterate.  Handle different guns and see what you like.

True, we can build whatever we want.  It’s your business… but you did ask for opinions.  A list of specs may look fine on paper, but in the real world the performance of such a gun may leave it wanting.

I build SMR’s from a blank; just two or three a year.  Most of my guns carry a B weight swamped barrel, .50 caliber, and 44” long.  That combination looks good, handles and balances well, and can be used for deer in every state (as far as I know). 

I’m not an expert, but my research tells me that a .50 caliber was not common; but there were some.  Barrels of 1” at the breech were somewhat common, with the vast majority being swamped.  And at 44”, a barrel is really on the short end of average for an SMR.  Locks were English.

When you get into barrels that are rifled for .54 or larger, you get into barrels widths that, in my opinion, will end up looking chubby in the breach area on a SMR.  And if you change dimensions in the wrist, forearm, and butt to look good with the wider barrel… your gun won’t look like a nice slim SMR.  Other styles of rifles are just better suited for the larger calibers.

I did make a nice looking SMR in .54 for my brother on a 44” C weight barrel.  But his length of pull is 14 ½ inches; so I increased other proportions a little, used a Durs Egg lock because it’s a little larger than the Late Ketland I normally use, and it came out looking nice.  But it’s a big gun… and my brother is 6’3”.

My point is… if you build a gun around the specs you have, the gun may not end up looking like the SMR’s you’ve been eyeing.  It also may not end up handling like one either.  If you use a straight barrel, and go for something 40” or longer, you will have a muzzle heavy gun… not a light well balanced one.

I’m assuming (which means there’s a good chance I’m wrong) that your success has also been with shooting the big bullets, and you may be uneasy with the thought of using a round ball on large game.  I’ve never shot the bullets.  But I can tell you, from personal experience, that a .490 ball pushed by 65 grains of 3f will go clean through a whitetail doe at 50 yards.  Lengthwise.  I also have a buddy that has taken three elk with round balls out of his old .50 caliber Dixie Mtn Rifle.  I can also tell you that a .562 ball (.58 cal rifle) in front of 70 grains of 3f is an absolute thumper!

Handle nice longrifles with swamped barrels.  Shoot them if possible.  It will be fun research!  There is magic in a long, slim, well balanced Longrifle.  Unfortunately, you can’t achieve that magic by just throwing any list of parts together.  A good Longrifle is the result of proper design, planning, and execution.

My two cents worth.  My first gun from a blank did not have the proper design and planning.  Execution was good, but the result is a rifle that I don’t use any longer… and one that I would not sell because of the design flaws.

Anyway.  If you’re cutting live wood for the stock, then you have some time to think about things, and handle nice guns, while the wood goes through a proper curing.

[elkhorne]

Ben,
Like Dphariss said, I second! To really learn correct architecture and how all the components relate to each other, go for a Kibler Colonial or Woodsrunner in.54 or .58. I chose a Kibler Colonial in .58 because having studied others comments on the Colonial expressed the .58 was the best balanced of the various calibers it is offered in. As far as the Woodsrunner, I personally do not have one as yet but imagine it would be very nicely balanced in .54. I know you said you live in PA so check the game laws where you live for muzzle loading caliber requirements. Also be aware if you are going to hunt say deer and squirrel with 5e same rifle/smoothbore, you can not do it in many states! I live in Louisiana and the state deer minimum caliber is .45 but the maximum caliber for squirrel is .36 caliber in a rifle. I have a smoothbore in .50 I can use for both. Just a thought. Also if you plan on hunting elk, check the caliber requirement for them as at least one western state I know of has raised the caliber require,net for elk. Good luck but my 2 cents is start with a Kibler and learn a longrifle anatomy and architecture and then go for “build from a blank” falling the outstanding videos of experienced builders like Bill Raby and Clay Smith. Good luck have fun! Merry Christmas!
elkhorne

[Ben McCormick]

I owe a big THANK YOU to all of you who have posted and let me in on some hard earned knowledge. So thank you.

I feel lightyears ahead of where I was when I originally posted.


Still have a lot to consider and I will admit that some of you have already changed my mind on some things.

I will probably start with a pistol or a kibler kit.

Please don't let this stop the feedback. I look forward to reading it everyday.

Once again, thank you all for the outstanding responses.

Please keep it coming.

Ben