Johannes Moll Jr. gun - circa 1785?

[Mattox Forge]

This is a very nice looking gun. Do you think it was ever a rifle? I doubt it with the Spanish form barrel, which seems more appropriate for a fowler. I think the write up is suspect, as they cite two different dates: 1775 and 1840 as the year of manufacture. The earlier 1775 date seems to be more accurate. Also, how is it attributable to any particular builder?

https://www.ima-usa.com/collections/new-arrivals/products/original-u-s-relief-carved-pennsylvania-long-rifle-attributed-to-johannes-moll-jr-with-full-length-figured-stock-circa-1785#mz-expanded-view-1584720790312




Also, if one were to build a rifle styled after this gun, would it be appropriate to have a shorter, say 36", barrel?

Mike

[Eric Kettenburg]

That just went at Morphy's a few weeks ago for $8400 plus whatever buyer's premium they attached.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=552993

I feel fairly certain that it is probably John Sr. (Johannes) very shortly post-War, mid to late 1780s, but it has had a LOT of work done to it.

Nevertheless it's a great piece to my admittedly biased mind.

I do not believe in any way that a rifle of this architectural styling, of that area, would ever be pre-War.  We went through this quite considerably in the John Rupp threads early this past year.  Or I should say, I know for sure that I made my own opinions well-known.  Others stuck in the 1960s prefer to use derogative aspersions like "stooge."

Sincerely, Moe.

[Mattox Forge]

Eric,

Thank you. Excellent information. I have some homework to do now.

Mike

[rich pierce]

I can’t think a shorter barrel belongs on a slim classic Lehigh but will defer to those who build them. 44” seems right to me.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Been talking with a few folks about this and it would *seem* that this listing on the IMA site predated the Morphy's auction.  So they had it listed at $14-15K and I guess eventually sent it to Morphy's.  This seems to be the general consensus but I don't personally know for certain.  So $8400 at Morphys, @ 20% buyer's premium off the top of my head, taxes and shipping, I'd say the new buyer got it for @ $11K or so.

The initial link in the OP does not work for me now so I guess they yanked it?

Take a very close look at the carving on this.  To my mind, it seems to pre-date the fluffy more elaborate Lehigh work you see on Rupp/Moll rifles of later date (1790s onward) with all the added embellishment.  Here, despite the wear, much of it very clearly seems to be directly descended from what is seen on a piece like RCA43 or the designs Oerter was using.

Two other interesting points of note are the box release - through the comb, not the more wood-box type through the rear - and also the clear solder joint at the rear of the box lid, which despite the solder and piece infill there has the 'look' of a thicker casting typical of Moll boxes.

[Mattox Forge]

I received the original link from IMA on Saturday the 31st in a text listing their "New Items": https://ima.attn.tv/l/Y4z/V2B1s

The OP link doesn't work for me either any more. However this one does work:

https://www.ima-usa.com/collections/new-arrivals/products/original-u-s-relief-carved-pennsylvania-long-rifle-attributed-to-john-moll-with-full-length-figured-stock-circa-1785

For future reference I posted the new description and the photos here

Mike

Item Description

Original Item: One-of-a-kind. Well this is a real treat! This is a wonderful late 18th Century U.S. "Pennsylvania" Long Rifle, sometimes called a "Kentucky Rifle". The thin stock with a gently curved butt is gives a shape of one of the most elegant weapons of the 18th Century. The Eastern Pennsylvania area had been originally been settled by immigrants from the German States, as well as those from nearby Moravia in what is today the Czech republic. The guns produced show the unmistakable influence of Central European firearms. The style then spread Westward, and eventually made its way down to the Ohio River valley into the Kentucky area.

This incredible relief carved example is attributed to Johannes (John) Moll Sr., who operated in the Northampton and Lehigh county areas of Eastern Pennsylvania, in the late 18th century. It was featured on page 36 of Accouterments V by James R. Johnston. This unsigned rifle shows influence from other earlier Moravian makers located in the Christian Springs and Bethlehem areas. Johannes Moll and the Moll family patriarch, first appeared on the tax assessment of “Northampton Town” (Allentown) for the year 1764, and his son would take over the business. The family would go on to produce many other famous gunsmiths in the area. To see a nice list of all the members of the Moll family
in the Lehigh / Northampton area, please see this lovely page at the Kentucky Rifle Foundation website: Northampton - Lehigh Gunsmiths. You will notice there are SEVEN well-known gunsmiths from the Moll family.

The 63 inch long gun features a smooth bore barrel of 47 3/4 inches with a bore of approximately 0.52". However, it is very possible that it was once a .30" or .39" rifle, which was worn down over the years. While these rifles are beautiful works of art, they were just as famous for their effectiveness, and were made to be used. The beautiful well grained elegantly curved tiger maple full stock carefully fitted with all brass sculptured mounts is characteristic of the style. An arstisan-made recently produced replica of a John Moll Sr. rifle by Eric von Aschwege can be seen at his website here:  John Moll Sr.. This gives a good approximation of what this fantastic example looked like when it was newly produced.

However this example probably looked a bit more ornate, as the many carvings, now faded from cleaning and wear, look to originally have all inlaid with brass wire, of which only a bit remains on the right side of the butt stock by the patch box. One can see large "Lancaster" style scrolls on the left side of the butt stock around the characteristic German style cheek rest, and these also look like they originally had brass inlay.

The left side of the stock features a two piece patch box, retained by the characteristic 3 screw retained fitting. It is opened by pressing on a screw button on top of the butt stock, and the end of the cover features an engraved / stylized reversed C around the riveted end of the latch, a Moll family trademark. The butt plate is about 1 7/8 inches wide, which going by other examples puts the production date of approximately 1785.

The lock plate on the rifle is the typical Germanic style, with beveled edges and molding at the tail. The other side of the run features a German-inspired Lehigh style brass side plate, with an arrow at the tail. The slender gently sloping design is a typical Lehigh county form. Another Allentown area specific trait is the "Liberty Head" incised into the bottom of the stock in front of the trigger guard tang. Also called an "Indian Head", this design is iconic, though on this example very hard to see due to wear in the stock. We suspect it was also originally inlaid with brass wire.

This wonderful long gun is what we call "A SLEEPER" in that it is totally untouched and unrestored probably an Attic find. It has very old wood damage notably a section of the left side toe is missing and a slice of wood behind the flintlock hammer partially exposing the interior of the lock workings. The fore end has some barrel wood broken away with cracks down each side for five or six inches. All this damage is minor and could be easily restored if so desired but that is for the ultimate owner to decide. The lock still is fully functional, holding at half cock and firing at full. The ramrod also looks to be original, and has an iron fitting on the end.

We choose to offer this exceedingly rare Flintlock from the 18th century in all original condition. These very early LEHIGH flintlocks are so very rare and need to be preserved. Ready to cherish and display!

Specifications-

Year of Manufacture: c.1785
Caliber: approx .52" smoothbore
Cartridge Type: Ball and Powder
Barrel Length: 47 3/4 Inches
Overall Length: 63 Inches
Action type: Side Action Flintlock
Feed System: Muzzle Loading

[JTR]

So it was sold at Morphy's for $8600+, and is now for sale at IMA for $15K?

Nice gun, for sure.

[Mattox Forge]

The nice thing about all of these auctions/sales is that we get free magazine quality pictures of rare guns.

Mike

[rich pierce]

Hard for me to see it as untouched. That Siler frizzen is striking and of a form seldom seen on originals.

[Eric Kettenburg]

There is very little about it that is "untouched" and even a stooge like myself can see it.  Still, to my mind, an important piece illustrating development of a specific style in the region.

[Tom Currie]

I like the the engraving on on the PB lid, very reminiscent ( vestigal) of the carved design used on Christians Springs wooden lids . Great there is just enough  of the carving for us to see  influence from an earlier period.  Eric, that PB lid looks to be same pattern as the casting you had probably 15 years ago. Still have one in my drawer , probably need to get down to using it.

[jdm]

The engraving on the patch box lid is like having a signed Moll. He used it quite a bit. I agree it's had some restoration but who cares ? Your not going to find a perfect one , Wonderful rifle ! To me it was well worth the money.

[rich pierce]

The engraving on the patch box lid is like having a signed Moll. He used it quite a bit. I agree it's had some restoration but who cares ? Your not going to find a perfect one , Wonderful rifle ! To me it was well worth the money.

This wonderful long gun is what we call "A SLEEPER" in that it is totally untouched and unrestored probably an Attic find.

I agree and wouldn’t care if this wasn’t in the description above.

[Buck]

Jim,

I agree, it was worth the money.

Buck

[Tom Currie]

I'm always interested in variations on decorative elements for rifles such as this one . The Morphy's write up has a quote stating "  1 piece of brass wire is still present in front of the patchbox. However, the many incised cuts forming scrolls on both sides of the wrist indicate extensive brass wire inlaid decoration was once present.'

Looking at that area closely all I see is the single short wire and the incised carving of the volute coming from the wrist/comb junction which from my recollection of Lehighs was not wire inlayed. Once again my recollection is that if we see wire with this type of patchbox it's usually the wrap around type like a H Rupp style.

So I guess my question is is Morphy's just guessing that volute was filled with wire and/or was this rifle adorned with a that single piece of wire as a small detail ?

I appreciate anyone's thoughts here.

[jdm]

I personally think as far as the wire inlay goes . What you see is what you get.  Years ago on a Moll rifle I had  behind the cheek piece he put a curvy line like this one . Artistic license !

[Eric Kettenburg]

I don't think there ever was any brass wire on this rifle other than what you see.  We have modern 'standards' and ways of seeing things that were not necessarily the case 200+ years ago, especially when it comes to issues such as artistic application which is the case here.

[Buck]

Eric,

Well put, it's the opinion of the "Specialist" - whatever that's worth (a 16% shortfall off the low end of the estimate). 

Buck