patch/ball/lube combination for repeat shots with no swabbing?

[smallpatch]

A snug patch/ball combo, and a good liquid lube will shoot all day, without cleaning.

On a long day of shooting, the only time I need to run a cleaning patch, is if I let it sit for 20 minutes after a shooting to reload.

[Rado]

10 ounce denim works for me and has been working for 49 years.

You mean Jeans cloth?
May I ask for your source?
Or do you think this would be ok?
https://www.etsy.com/de/listing/937565951/washed-denim-10-oz?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=10+oz+denim&ref=sr_gallery-1-5&organic_search_click=1

[Daryl]

If you live in the States, check out Joanne's Fabrics. Yes- I mean 10 ounce denim. I also use 12 ounce and 14 ounce. Those are used when I use undersized balls in my
.69 (14bore)calibre rifle. If I use .682" ball, the 10 ounce works. If the .677"(15 bore ball), then the 12 ounce gets the nod. With the 14ounce I get good accuracy with a .662" (16 bore ball)

[Rado]

I live in Germany. But I think I can get some yards of Denim. The shop in the link is German.
Thanks!

[Daryl]

With a ball .010" to .005" (.254 to .127 mm) under bore size, 10 ounce denim works in about ALL rifles/barrels currently made.

[DavidC]

Are you washing and drying that denim before using it?

[Daryl]

I buy the material by the meter, then wash it twice, first with soap or detergent, and second time, no soap, but full cycle.
I then dry it in the electric dryer. The washing and drying (medium heat) will tighten up the fabric slightly and gain a thou or so in thickness
and make it softer.  I use arch punches or bearing races for cutting patches. I have shot square patches as well, but usually use round pre-
cut patches, pre-lubed normally, or lubed with spit when loading.
That is for target shooting only.
For hunting, an oil or grease that will dissolve and/or soften black powder fouling is required.
IIRC - you require a fairly large calibre to be hunting big game in Germany, due to "joules" requirement.

[Rado]

I dont hunt. In Germany you need permissions for everything. For hunting, for purchasing black powder.
Im pretty sure its just a matter of time until I will need a permission for a single shot flintlock gun.
The German government is now even staging alleged coups d etat in order to justify more restrictions on gun ownership and other civil rights.
Therefore Im only shooting at shootingranges in Poland where I was born, when Im there on holidays.
Untill recently I used only percussion firearms but since percussion caps are so expensive, flintlocks are becoming an interesting alternative.

[Bigmon]

I am sorry for you.
We here in America should take note of what he is telling us, and count our blessings for what freedoms we (still) have.  Although there are many that would deprive us of them.

[Panzerschwein]

I never swab between shots. Spit patch and a snug patch ball combo are key. Some guys use loads that can be driven down by the weight of the ramrod alone. This is just too much space for fouling to build in the rifling. A snug patch/ball and spit scrub the bore with each loading moistening the fouling. I can literally shoot all day and groups are outstanding.

[hudson]

Originally found the best load with my .54 was .535, balls, .020 Teflon, and coconut oil. Teflon knocked about inch off the group at 100 yards. With the coconut oil I found you can use too much. With this load I could shoot an entire match without cleaning. Later on I found 20/80 mix Ballistol/water as good or better and a lot less messy. I remember seeing a note here on army duct canvas so decided to try it out. That stuff (.020 same as the Teflon) is so tightly woven I had to go down to .530 balls, Accuracy was just as good as with Teflon and cheaper, link below.
https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/army-duck/10-10-oz-60-inches-wide/

[Dphariss]

The Bridger Mountainmen’s trailwalk type matches are 25-30 rounds, I can shoot the entire match without wiping it I blow down the bore. With or without a blow tube. Tallow or Neatsfoot Oil.
This photo is the last three shots at 100 with Neatsfoot on a heavy cotton patch .025 or so. I had shot two on another target but light was bad I was holding too much front sight I went to a smaller target and put powder fouling on the silver blade. POI came down. Right drift was from the wind.
 I have some Linen thats a little thinner .018. I need to try with a .535/538 ball.  As soon as I get down putting in a floor and replacing some sheetrock. Made up a variation of the old Sharps Rifle Company lube substituting Neatsfoot for Sperm Whale Oil. I tried the original mix back about 1980 and found it was a GREAT patch lube. Will see how this works. 2 part oil to 1 part Beeswax BY WEIGHT. Use GOOD beeswax and melt with a double boiler. NEVER direct heat. Should load easy and shoot well enough for hunting and fun matches.
Slick lubes “usually” will not shoot as well as a higher friction load. But these require wiping every shot. OK for a bench/chunk match but I PITA since it has to be done very carefully and consistently.
Well back to flooring till I get tired of that. I have another Kibler in the shop. Going to try work 1/2 time on the Kibler and 1/2 on a 80% done “Rocky Mountain Rifle” that should have been done in Sept… Gotta get both done before my “serious” shooting season starts

[Prairie dog shooter]

Spit is the only lube I have found to let me shoot and load without swabbing the bore.  The problem is it will dry out or freeze when hunting. 

[hanshi]

With a smooth barrel crown it is easy.  I'll load 60 grains of 3F with a .440" or .445" ball and a canvas (or similar) compressed to .023"-.024" and lubed.  I can't use just two fingers to seat it and it goes down snug but quite easily with the wood under-barrel rod.  I've even used the heavier mattress ticking - around .018" to .019" - with the same results.  But accuracy was better with the thicker canvas.

[john bohan]

I have seen a lot of difference in loading with different powders, Swiss seems to be the cleanest therefore less fouling makes for easier loading.

[tallpine]

One word, SPIT, it's free, it's always handy, it works.

[Daryl]

I have seen a lot of difference in loading with different powders, Swiss seems to be the cleanest therefore less fouling makes for easier loading.

With the ball and patch combinations I have used, using spit, LHV, Mr/ Flintlock's Lube & WWWF I have found little to no difference in loading, no matter the powder brand. Interesting observation though. I have heard that there is a limit with Swiss, at which point if produces heavy fouling with more powder.
I've not used Swiss in the ML's, but have used GOEX, C&H, Meteor, Dupont, old Enysford and Schuetzen in 3F and 2F in most of the calibers I have used. 

[Dphariss]

I have seen a lot of difference in loading with different powders, Swiss seems to be the cleanest therefore less fouling makes for easier loading.

With the ball and patch combinations I have used, using spit, LHV, Mr/ Flintlock's Lube & WWWF I have found little to no difference in loading, no matter the powder brand. Interesting observation though. I have heard that there is a limit with Swiss, at which point if produces heavy fouling with more powder.
I've not used Swiss in the ML's, but have used GOEX, C&H, Meteor, Dupont, old Enysford and Schuetzen in 3F and 2F in most of the calibers I have used.

I ran into this in proving a 58 caliber barrel. Made hard white  fouling in the bore. Proof was 200+ gr of FFF Swiss. But it continued with 100 gr service load in testing.
Mad Monk said it had to do with bore size and burn rate and a elevated temperature of the burn.
It was not my rifle so I have not shot it further. But the problem did disappear at 90 gr FFF.
A 54 will shoot 100 gr of FFF without any issues ?

[Daryl]

Interesting finding with the Swiss powder, Dan. I've not observed this in the powders I have used.

[smylee grouch]

I have had that hard fouling before too BUT not all the time. I shoot Swiss. Makes me wonder if the weather/humidity or maybe the patch lube might have something to do with it. 

[recurve]

I shoot swiss and found that any wax mixed with tallow , bees or paraffin gave a hard ring above the bullet seat . also if to little tallow (I use mutton) is used.  The patch needs to feel waxy with tallow not  to dry, keeps the fouling  soft

[Dphariss]

Interesting finding with the Swiss powder, Dan. I've not observed this in the powders I have used.

I can only go with what Bill K told me happened. But as stated the 54s I have will shoot 100 gr with no issue. ?
Maybe it was the phase of the moon or something. Rifle belongs to a friend I could ask him is he was seen any problems with it.

[Dphariss]

I shoot swiss and found that any wax mixed with tallow , bees or paraffin gave a hard ring above the bullet seat . also if to little tallow (I use mutton) is used.  The patch needs to feel waxy with tallow not  to dry, keeps the fouling  soft

I have a rifle that does this will beef tallow and Neatsfoot Oil. Heck it stopped snowing maybe I could go to the range? Or not. Hmm. Could try 100 gr of FF I guess see if it still causes the rings. Have some deer tallow around here someplace too…
Or do some sheetrocking or work on one of the three ML projects I have started. Or take a nap.

[bigsmoke]

Here are a couple of thoughts.
As mentioned, spit is very versatile.  I can usually get through an entire match without wiping the bore.

Next, if this is an important match, I like to use Ol' Thunder Patch Lube and Bore Solvent.  It is available through Smoke and Thunder Muzzleloading Supply.  One year I won top shooter of the Coeur d'Alene Muzzleloaders.  At the matches, I never wiped the bore between shots.

When I was shooting big bore rifles, I used, for example, on my 12 bore, after the powder charge, I put down a 12 gauge pre-lubed cushion wad, then a .715 round ball in a .015 Ox Yoke Wonder Lubed Patch.  This was mainly a hunting load, but one time I did shoot it on a trail walk with 200 grains of GOEX Ffg powder.  I think the match was about 25 shots, IIRC.  I never wiped the bore and the last shot loaded as easily as the first.  I believe I came in 3rd on the match.

I have used many brands of barrels over the years, from stock factory barrels, to Douglas to Sharron, to Oregon, to Rayle and even a few others that I just don't recall who made them.  I have never polished them with steel wool or Scotch Brite pads and I have never worked on the muzzle.  Maybe I am lucky, maybe I am blessed, or whatever.  And I have certainly done my share of winning over the years. Or maybe I just expect the barrels to function the way I want them to and they do.  I dunno.

John (Bigsmoke)

[hudson]

I have experience the hard fouling with Swiss ffg in my .54 (1 in 70 twist) with my long range load of 110 gr. of ffg. I switched to Goex ffg with no problem. A wee bit of accuracy loss but accepted. Bill K. did mention the higher burning temperature of Swiss was the main reason as I recall.