Pouch styles

[Artificer]

The leather for my pouch was left over from an english bellows that I was building. Now that I have restored another bellows I have some relly nice brown oil tan scraps so a new bag is in the planning stage. As far as needled, I use a sailmakers palm and needles, no need for an awl.

I've used sailmaker's needles a couple of times and sometimes use a palm like you describe.   However, an awl works better for me most times.  But, it doesn't matter what tools one uses but rather what works best for each individual.

I'm sure you did not mention this as if it was used during the 18th century, but I wanted to mention that sailmaker's needles would have been even more uncommon and expensive "in the country" in the 18th and early 19th century than regular needles or cordwainer's/saddlery needles - except of course for those in those trades. 

[BrownBear]

Sorry if this is a diversion, but since the subject of needles came up, I gotta ask:

Any record of the settlers using bone needles?  The original inhabitants of the continent did some amazing work on hides using bone needles and sinew before steel needles ever showed up.  I'm sure they jumped on the steel once they could get them, but bone was so well established, I have to guess that the settlers traded for bone needles even if they didn't make them themselves.

Long as I cracked the door, I've seen some really startling bone needles in archeological digs.  One site in particular had literally thousands of them.  Seems like they were awfully easy to lose, but interestingly we found very few broken ones.

And the eyes on most were TINY!!!! Kind of a mystery how they drilled such small holes in small needles until we found some that hadn't been finished.  They drilled the tiny holes in the bone first, then cut or split away everything that wasn't a needle. 

The point is, I tried making them myself a few times, and it was so easy that I have to believe settlers and explorers could easily have made their own as needed.

[Campchair]

I think the discussion is pretty well on the mark. Most were dirt-simple, but they could be examples of the leatherworker's art. As far as age, in Madison Grant's book there are some excellent illustrations of some of the earliest known (F&I War?) - including a very early one with a wool strap. I don't have the book here before me (Still at Day Job) but there is a photo of one that was documented to have belonged to a "professional" hunter along with the contents that were still inside. This individual (...now,this is from memory, so allow for memory loss after a hard day...) apparently shot game and sold it to various markets and other wealthy customers in that day. He would have used it day in and day out. His bag appears to have been professionally made, very plain, but excellent craftsmanship on par with a fine saddle or other high-end leather item. It appears like something he would have had a saddler or other leather craftsman to make. He was probably the exception, as he used it most every day, and it might have been the last one of many he wore out through the years. (It might have been made by the saddler because he reasoned one excellent bag would outlast 5 home-made ones. He may have been right - it still looks very good.)  But, I make a few pouches now and then, and have looked at some very early ones over the years, in collections and at gun shows, and most seemed to have been made by the shooter  in their "spare time", as on a rainy day when farm work was not possible, or simply using some leather (well tanned or otherwise) to put together something that would hold everything together. Madison Grant's book has every conceivable one possible. Many appear to have been user crafted. Most individuals back then had some connection with harnesses, saddles, and leather on a daily basis. Most farmers had some simple harness mending tools, and some ability. Most of the pouches I have been privileged to examine closely look like the sewer did not have a "stitching horse" handy as the stitches are crooked and irregular. (Like those I made (and make) when I don't have my "horse" handy) But, I have seen some that were known to have been made by the owner that were very finely made. In summation: They were as individual as the rifle they accompanied and the shooters who carried both. Regional differences? Probably. I never saw a double bag or a teardrop (heart) shaped one here in the South, and most were not lined. (But, I haven't seen them all. I might be surprised tomorrow) One thing is sure, most were probably the last one made while the rifle was in use, so considering the rifles sometimes had a working life of 50-60 years (or more) they might represent a regional style that was popular near the end of the percussion era, or when the rifle was "retired". Or they might not. If it is nearly unused but shows deterioration in keeping with the age of a rifle it accompanies, logic indicated it "may" be contemporary with the rifle.  One never knows. I make fancy ones and simple ones. They all seem to be popular. Maybe the originals were the same. If you use original materials, original methods, and follow the same simple styles, I believe you will be pretty accurate. Campchair

[dannybb55]

I live in Carteret County, NC. Lord Carteret went on to found New Jersey after he was through with us way back. We are surrounded by Salt water so Sailing Gear is pretty common. I have stuck the back end of needles into my hand plenty of times so I switched to a palm. Anyone who sewed tarps and tents or was a cordwainer had to use a Palm and Needle and they were manufactured for export so give one a shot.
 Sailmakers pushed a needle through five layers of 12 oz canvas 12 stitches to the inch, thirty feet an hour for 12 hours a day and only saw one side of their work as you can't flip 1600 ft sq of sail over for each stitch. That was in Mass a hundred years ago, say in Gloucester or Essex. Try that with an awl. Arggggh!

[rich pierce]

I wonder what percentage of early rifle pouches (1700's) were hand-made by the user and how many were boughten.  Many of the original pouches we see now are Appalachian, back-woods pouches made in the 1800's.  It's not surprising some look home-made.  However there were tanneries here in colonial times and commercial leather goods were common.  maybe it would differ if you were a tidewater plantation owner or a backwoods settler.  I'm pretty sure Geo. Washington didn't carry a roughly constructed pouch.  (added in edit- look at how many commercial horns were made, screw-tips, lathe-turned plugs, etc).
Regarding needles and thread, i think an awl would be the ticket for a home-made pouch.  For thread I have successfully stripped thread off of linen cloth and sewed with it. That way the thread matches the cloth.

[Artificer]

Danny,

Actually boar's hair needles were much more common for Cordwainers up until and still in use after steel needles became available. 

"They were at least in use by the 15th century, according to a Cordwainer's will referred to in Swann, and regularly used in the 17th century, it is clear from that poem that other sorts of needles were in use as well."

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/thread.html

Of course, cordwainers required needles that either could curve without breaking or were already curved. 

What I don't know is how common the knowledge of using boar's or sow's bristle needles were to "common people" back then who had been raised under a domestic European background.  Hogs were the primary source of protein in Virginia until well into the 19th century, so the bristles would have been available.  Of course, if one is using a boar's hair needle, one is going to have to use an awl in most leather thick enough for shooting bags. 

Actually, I should correct something I've mentioned before.  Cordwainers could have made shooting bags and the like, but it was not really in their purview.  They made better money because a good cordwainer knew how to fit shoes to the human foot and shoes were EXPENSIVE in the 18th century when made by a cordwainer.  Shooting bags were much more the purview of saddle and harness makers and perhaps cobblers as a secondary source from period trades.  Cobblers did not enjoy the same social status and money making ability as they usually "only" repaired shoes.  This implies they did not have as much skill and knowledge at making shoes to correctly fit the foot.  However, they also traveled more and were more likely to have made shooting bags "on site" for customers rather than cordwainers who usually had permanent shops set up.

Farmers in the more settled areas would have some harness repair equipment to be sure.   Even older farms on the frontiers would have had some.  However, younger farmers or farmers who were starting new farms on the frontier would not have had much of that equipment for at least a few years after they built their cabins, cleared their land and got some money from raising crops.. 

[Artificer]

Got to thinking about something else I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned recently and that is the number of itinerant (traveling) tradesmen in the 18th century.  I don't claim to be any kind of expert on this, but it is well established that tradesmen traveled around the colony of Virginia and I assume elsewhere.  (We do know that for most of the 18th century, the colonists had better communications with England than they did with other colonies due to poor roads and trails.)

Tinkers are especially still fairly well known as traveling repairmen and Jack of All Trades.  They would "make their rounds" throughout the country side and stay long enough to fix whatever needed fixing and then move on to the next place.  They weren't the only ones.  We still use the word "journeymen" to describe those who have learned a trade but are not quite considered "Masters" in their trade.  When an apprentice was at the end of his apprentice period, in most trades it was part of the apprenticeship contract that he would either have made or be provided the basic tools of his trade so he could journey elsewhere to find work, make a living, and or eventually set up his own shop.   Some journeymen stayed with their Masters and some traveled to work for another master and some traveled around making their living as best they could.

Perhaps some of the better shooting bags were made by traveling journeymen harness and saddlemakers.  They would have fixed anything made of leather and move on, if the tinkerers couldn't do it.

[BrownBear]

On the subject of minimum bag size, I've come up with a good measuring technique since I hate big bags for my own use.

Here 'tis:

Figure out what will be the biggest single item in your bag.  Now grab it in your fist and measure the circumference of your fist. If the circumference of the bag is smaller than that, it's going to grab around your hand when you reach inside to retrieve things.  Kinda "handy" way to adjust the size of small bags for different sizes of hands and contents.