J&S Hawken rifle

[Herb]

Thanks, RAT.  From all the original Hawkens I've seen in museums, and all the photos of Hawkens, I've never seen anything like this.  I have nothing to offer.  Regarding keys, if they are not pinned, they can be put in from either side.  The Kit Carson Hawken originally had its key heads on the left, but someone pulled them and put them back with the heads on the right side.  This was told to Carney and me by Don Stenberg, curator at the lodge in Sante Fe which has the rifle.

[rich pierce]

The guard is like that on the silver plated (or silver) Atcheson J&S Hawken. That gun also had a single set trigger. The breech and tang are dead on for a J&S Hawken. The stock architecture is dead on. The keys and thimbles are right. The patchbox is of a form they favored (to my understanding they did not fabricate these). The barrel is of appropriate length and size. The use of a back action lock is not unprecedented for a Hawken rifle. I’m surprised the experts do not see all these features as fitting.

Atchison J&S Hawken. Notice the faceted buttplate. Notice the guard and single set trigger.

[RAT]

The Andrew Sublette (J & S Hawken) rifle also has a single set trigger. Both the Sublette and Atchison triggers have an adjustment screw behind the trigger.

Testing proved the mounts on the Atchison rifle (posted above) were "fine" silver... not plated. Note the separate iron heel on the buttplate in the photo above. As you pointed out, the comb part of the Atchison butt plate is also faceted. The trigger guards are similar, but not identical, so they aren't from the same pattern piece... not that they have to be.

looking at my photos of the Atchison, the barrel keys enter from the right side of the stock. Don't get too hung-up on Barrel key direction. They can go either way. Entering from the left side is just more common in general... probably a British thing.

[bbennet2@hotmail.com]

So I attempted to test the set trigger. I believe I followed the previous instructions. Hammer in fired position I attempted to push the trigger forward but it does not move or ‘click’. There is also no half cock of the hammer. There is only full. There is good print tension pulling the trigger with about 1/2” of travel. When the hammer is cocked there is no travel required for trigger break. It’s immediate. Obviously I did not dry fire the weapon, I rode the hammer forward. Am I missing anything. I’m not very familiar with these set triggers. The set screw is in front on the trigger instead of behind it and looks to be back out quite a ways.

[Dphariss]

Could be a broken spring(s) could be rust or grime. Without disassembly its hard to say. BUT any disassembly, if done at all, needs to be done by someone knowledgeable.
No half-cock is common in later percussion locks.

The patch box.
Here is a photo of a box our guild president used in a presentation.
Its and iron box but similar to the one on this rifle.

[RAT]

Without seeing the rifle in person this is just a guess... but...

It sounds like it's just a simple trigger and not a set trigger. The trigger is simply rotating on a pivot and is not powered by a spring. The spring tension you feel is most probably coming from the sear spring in the lock. A gunsmith that's competent in restoration work could remove the lock, trigger guard, and triggers (not to mention the barrel) and that would provide a wealth of information. If you decide to go that route... please take pictures! Posting pictures helps all of us learn more. The screw coming in from the bottom just in front of the trigger must have another purpose.

The lock not having a half cock position probably has one of two answers. It's been broken off the tumbler over the years... or more likely the lock was made without a half cock notch on the tumbler. Locks without half cock notches are very common. It's not needed unless using set triggers, which would explain a simple (non-set) trigger being used here.

I would do 2 things before fooling with it anymore...

First, run a rod down the bore until it bottoms out, mark the rod even with the muzzle, pull it out, and lay it along side the barrel with the mark even with the muzzle. If the bottom end of the rod is a couple of inches forward of the breech... it means there's still a charge in the barrel. This will need to be removed by someone who knows how to do it.

Second, remove the lock and check the internals to make sure everything is intact and won't be damaged by further handling.

[RAT]

Here's a photo of the trigger from the Atchison rifle. It came from an article in the April 1981 issue of Muzzle Blasts. Contact the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association if you want a copy of the article.

[RAT]

OK... here are more photos of the Atchison single set trigger (from the same Muzzle Blasts article).

In this photo the trigger is "un-set". The red arrow points to the portion of the trigger that contacts the lock sear and fires the lock. The trigger can be pulled to fire the gun in this "un-set" position.


In this photo the trigger is "set". When the trigger is pushed forward the top of it rotates until the"point" (green arrow) filed inside the hole at the top of the trigger changes it's position relative to the trigger spring (red arrow). The trigger is now held in the "set" position by how the spring acts upon this point. It's essentially a cam in operation. When the trigger is pressed slightly to the rear, the point will move past the roller at the end of the spring and the spring will force the rest of the trigger movement under spring tension. This provides a lighter trigger pull and more aggressive action upon the lock sear.


The yellow arrow points to the adjustment screw. Screwing it in pushes the tip of the screw against the bottom rear of the trigger. This rotates the trigger, and the cam point at the top. Basically, when you screw the adjustment screw in, it requires less movement of the trigger to fire the lock when the trigger is in the set position.

There are other single set trigger designs that work differently. Double set triggers also work differently.

[Daryl]

That is an intriguing design. Thanks for the pictures. It also appears to be fairly simple one for home builders.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It is an intriguing design for certain.  My only criticism comes as a shooter...when you trip the trigger, it disappears from your finger.  for me this would have an effect on my accuracy.  I like triggers with limited backlash.

[Bob Roller]

It is an intriguing design for certain.  My only criticism comes as a shooter...when you trip the trigger, it disappears from your finger.  for me this would have an effect on my accuracy.  I like triggers with limited backlash.

The French,Swiss and Brits had single set triggers that did not fly away from your finger and I copied a German design that was also like that and I made some for a German who was making target pistols.He called it Der Suhlerstecher or a trigger made in Suhl.(Zool)
The one shown here is a simplified type and I also made a simple trigger that would be easier to make than this one.It is like the single lever double set trigger and can hold the sear up after the gun is fired.I have made none for about 50 years.The one shown here is not as simple as it looks and I can see more labor in it than my old versions.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

The guard is like that on the silver plated (or silver) Atcheson J&S Hawken. That gun also had a single set trigger. The breech and tang are dead on for a J&S Hawken. The stock architecture is dead on. The keys and thimbles are right. The patchbox is of a form they favored (to my understanding they did not fabricate these). The barrel is of appropriate length and size. The use of a back action lock is not unprecedented for a Hawken rifle. I’m surprised the experts do not see all these features as fitting.

Atchison J&S Hawken. Notice the faceted buttplate. Notice the guard and single set trigger.

That lock plate is just like or very close to the very last caplock I made.It had a mechanism very much like that shown in the lock Molly posted.It is also like the lock on the Peterson Hawken in Woodfill's book on the Hawken rifle.
Bob Roller