Pre wrapped/tied balls

[bob in the woods]

On a whim, I tried some linen wrapped/tied balls in my 10 bore , and the results seem promising.  A pocket full of these , and my WW spritz bottle and I was set for the trail.  Anyone else try this ?

[Eric Kettenburg]

There are quite a number of German rifles 'out there' as well as a small handful of American early rifles (under 5 fingers) that have box mortices with cavities clearly cut for pre-patched balls in them.  In other words the bottom of the box cavity is cut with a series of (probably spoon bit) holes that were pretty clearly meant to contain already-patched (and one might assume sewn) patch/ball combos so bang you shoot, open box and grab a ready patch/ball combo, dump some powder and away you go.

I have personally seen at least 15 or more German rifles with boxes cut like this, but it seems not to have carried over to America unless many have been destroyed.  Who knows.  Good concept, though, and very functional.

Maybe if someone wakes up Chris Immel out of hibernation he can offer some insight here on German guns.  Immel?  Immel?  Immel?

[Daryl]

Seems to me, the Brits did this with their Baker rifles.  I think I saw a video on that by the British Canadian fellow who does this type of videos and shooting in a logging cut block
in the interior of the Province, I assume. A different video had him shooting the sewn-on patched balls. Haven't found it yet.
This chap.


In this one, the chap talked about the ball bag which carried 30 pre-patched balls.

Discussion of 3 different 'types' of ammunition issued.

[Pukka Bundook]

Daryl,
That's Rob,
He and his wife have attended our Victorian shoot for a good few years.
He does some great YouTubes of the shoot.
Look them up sometime.
"Alberta shoot".

Best,
R.

[yulzari]

The Brunswick Rifle had the balls issued sewn in cotton cloth. In Indian service the sewing tied five balls together.

[Longknife]

I have shot a great many military style paper wrapped cartridges. I would dip ball end in melted lube. I have shot over 50 rounds in one day without swabbing the bore...LK

[T*O*F]

Back in the day when I used to shoot timed, situational woodswalks, we often encountered ambushes which required speed loading.  We carried paper cartridges and wrapped balls in a cartridge box.  The balls had a single, loose, overhand knot that released upon firing.  We called them "Jaeger balls."  They were lubed with bear oil.  The paper cartridges contained only powder.  In use, you tore the paper and dumped it down the barrel, followed by the tied ball.  For safety, we always primed from the horn.  In other scenarios, we used conventional patched ball loads.

[Daryl]

Tks Richard - found the 2022 shoot and watched it. Posted it but removed it as there was a bunch of ctg. rifle shooting.

[Dphariss]

ANY significant wind at this distance will give wind drift in FEET at 300 as he found out. He needed 3-4 wind flags. But on a day with a mild wind (which he did not have by the way the foliage was  moving) it is possible to hit a man sized target at 300 with a 50 caliber kentucky if you know the proper hold over. It helps if the ground is dry and bullet trikes can be seen. A 50 caliber rifle with 1/2 ball weight of powder has more than enough penetration to kill a human as was done at Second Saratoga by one of Morgan’s Riflemen. Maybe Timothy Murphy. It reportedly took three shots and I was able for get a hit in one of three one day shooting from prone with no rest.  At 200 yards with no wind and a known aiming point a good RB rifle is capable of head shots at 200. I shot some a 385 meters last this winter but I could not see ANY bullet strikes and finally gave up. This with a 54 Kentucky. Will try it again this summer maybe with the target in a spot where I can more easily see impacts.
The users of the Baker at least knew the hold for 300 which he did not. If it were me I would have used a normal sight picture and found a point on the hill behind. But without flags and that much wind? Its going to be REALLY hard to get many hits. And where he was flags might not have worked. He did a great job at any rate given the conditions.

[Dphariss]

Oh and 800 yards? The balls would be coming it at a VERY steep angle and this is getting close to their maximum range regardless of how much elevation is used.  My ballisitics app, which might be wonky with RBs shows 281 MOA elevation for a 54 RB at 1700 fps. This is 79 MOA more than needed for 700. At 1000 528 MOA is needed so yeah its terminal someplace between 800 and 1000.
MOA is just over 1” per 100 yards.

[Daryl]

The chart/program I had showed 600 to 700yards was the maximum range for round balls up to .69. I do not remember the elevation needed, ie: angle, but it was such that
a greater angle, shortened the range.

[T*O*F]

Hatcher's Notebook has a discussion on the maximum range for round balls (not to be confused with maximum effective range) and how the experiments were conducted.

[Dphariss]

The chart/program I had showed 600 to 700yards was the maximum range for round balls up to .69. I do not remember the elevation needed, ie: angle, but it was such that
a greater angle, shortened the range.

Years ago Don King was shooting a 54 at a friend's 600 yard gong. It was 30” IIRC. He could get hits, dunno how many I was not there) by holding WAY up the  hill behind the gong. But at a 1000 they could not even find where the balls were landing. But there is some terrain features between the gong and  600 firing point. I found I could hit it fairly often with a 7 1/2” brass suppository revolver.  Once I found the place on the hill for an aiming point.

[WadePatton]

Tailwind. Shooting downwind in a stiff breeze stretches it out a bit doesn't it?  I haven't ever thought much about tailwind, but then you guys start talking long-range roundball and it got me thinkin'. 

edit: but perhaps we've drifted too far from the OP.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When shooting uphill or downhill, the actual distance to the target is immaterial.  The horizontal distance from where you are to the plane running vertically through the target, is the distance you need for setting your rear sight elevation.
This is most noticable when shooting a bow and arrow.  At a 3D tournament once, an elk target was set up at the bottom of a very steep cliff at a distance of about 175 yards.  A horizontal shot at an elk at that range with a 61 pound longbow is an exceedingly difficult target.  But since the elk was directly below me, I simply aimed at it as if it was only 10 yards away, and I scored a hit through the spine right between the shoulder blades.

[Clark Badgett]

US Ordnance did this with their rifle cartridges. Ball wrapped in cloth or membrane tied and then put into a tied paper tube.

[Daryl]

Got some pictures of some originals.
A .58 ball (could be conical)in ctg.

Buck and ball found in paper missing the powder section broken off I suppose.
Note the buckshot is over the ball.



Buck and ball found fused together - from civil war battle fields I suspect, but maybe from a fort site?



drawing of buck and ball ctg.

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, you are correct. That top cartridge is a .58 conical. In fact I don’t think they even made round balls for government rifle or rifle-musket munitions once the M1855 was adopted. As far as the buck and ball artifacts you post pictures of, there really is no way to determine the date unless they were noted by those who collected them. The B&B was the standard US musket ammunition type for smoothbores from the Revolution through the Civil War.

[Daryl]

Firearms of the American West notes that fully 75% of the munitions fired by the army, were buck and ball. Some on night Fort guard shift,
apparently used the straight buckshot load having 9 buckshot as it produced more yelps from the prowling "wolves". Another 'passage' from
that book.