Woodsrunner Question

[davec2]

At the risk of causing some sort of dust up, I wanted to ask for opinions about adding some substantial decoration to one of Jim's Woodsrunner kits.  Now I know this is a matter of personal taste (as it probably was for any of the 18th century gunsmiths themselves), but I wanted to ask here if a fair amount of carving and engraving would be considered "decoration" or "desecration".  Before I go any further, let me say that I agree completely that the rifle, as designed, is lovely in its own right with no additional embellishment required.  However, I am seeking opinions from this knowledgable community on this issue.  I haven't thought this through as far as the potential engraving motifs but have been cogitating on the carving.  So, to solicit opinions on something specific, here are some pencil sketches that I have done on the stock recently.......

[smallpatch]

Dave,
Your designs are beautiful as usual. 
I guess these things are opinion based, so here goes.
First, it’s your rifle, and your decorations are beautiful, and it will be a beauty as laid out. Your execution, flawless.

BUT!

The original was an early, mildly decorated gun, and in my opinion, should be carved that way.

Again, only my opinion, and looking forward to how you handle it.
Dane

[JTR]

I think your decoration looks very much at home, and would look great on the rifle!
John 

[bob in the woods]

I like your designs, but I think if I wanted something a bit different, I'd carve it as the "feather" rifle     I believe they were pretty much alike

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
Why would you hesitate?  If everyone made a Woodsrunner rifle like the original or the bare rifle kit, what a boring bunch of sameness.  They make me sleepy but I'll bet yours won't.  However, let me challenge you. You are capable of the finest work. OK, so what does the Woodsrunner rifle represent?  It appears to be an early gun, possibly pre-Rev War era and made by a rural maker.  So how to decorate it beyond the original rifle?  So I will say to you, David, that fine "Golden Age" or even Isaac Haines level carving doesn't do it. More simple but effective folk art might look better.  I urge you to use your talents to divine a more rustic design.  It is not easy and it requires the maker to understand the art styles of the times and it requires the discipline I know you have. Think Grama Moses and less Isaac Haines. Just my thoughts.

dave

[Bob Gerard]

I think the stock is a wonderful canvas for your beautiful artwork to enhance. Go for it. The world will be better with more of your art to enjoy 👍🏻

[Ed Wenger]

Hey Dave…, I’m currently doing one of these in American walnut, and plan on doing something similar around the tang to what you’re doing.  The carving behind the cheek will be a little more subdued than yours, but definitely more involved than what’s on the original.

Absolutely go for it.  I like what Dave said, and your design certainly won’t be sleepy. 

I know some people pewpew these kits for various reasons, but I find them mildly therapeutic.  Assemble them in a day, and get to the good stuff the next!  I personally draw the line on things like carving bunny’s or deer heads, but having a little artistic license, while keeping within the realm of 18th Century themes, is loads of fun.  So have fun and enjoy!  Best,

        Ed

[c deperro]

There are other rifles that use the same stock design . Or a pattern that is very close to it.  Examples. The Feather rifle . The Valentine Fondersmith rifle. And some of Christian Huffmans work. If I recall Wallace had a broken butt stock that looked close to that pattern also . The butt stock was fancy carved as is the Huffman rifle . I personally think a fancy woods runner is  fine.

[smylee grouch]

I dought ( sp ) anyone here has seen all the rifles produced in the past so it is possible that some or even one could have been highly ornamented. I always look forward to your artistry and say go for it.

[rich pierce]

There are other rifles that use the same stock design . Or a pattern that is very close to it.  Examples. The Feather rifle . The Valentine Fondersmith rifle. And some of Christian Huffmans work. If I recall Wallace had a broken butt stock that looked close to that pattern also . The butt stock was fancy carved as is the Huffman rifle . I personally think a fancy woods runner is  fine.

Good eye on the similarity to architecture of Valentine Fondersmith’s work. Very attractive and non-mainstream carving.

[David Rase]

Dave,
A friend of mine recently brought his woodsrunner over to my shop to discuss relief carving it.  He had done a bit of pencil sketching on the stock as you have.  The comment I gave him, and I feel it applies to your gun as well, is that the carving area behind the cheekpiece needs to be expanded a bit.  The carving pattern looks too truncated in my personal opinion.  My suggestion to him was to shorten up the rear of the cheekpiece.  We did some preliminary pencil sketching of this concept and really liked how changing the porportions seemed to balance out the entire buttstock.  I think the cheekpiece, as it was originally designed, looks great on a rifle decorated like the original but is too long for any complex relief carving. 
David   

[Dwshotwell]

I'm finishing up some carving on a Woodsrunner. It's my first shot at relief carving on an actual gun (after quite a bit of practice work) and I went with something fairly simple though different from the original. I went back and forth on what to do, looking at the original Woodsrunner pictures, as well as the Feather rifle and others that I felt "fit" the style (what do I know?). My conclusion was that both the WR and FR seemed very different from others out there, and that allowed a little more artistic license than you might find in other situations. At least that's what I told myself as I went ahead and did what I wanted anyway! Dave your work always looks great and I doubt anything you do would detract from the rifle.

[Kmcmichael]

Uh, YES!.

[Jim Kibler]

My view is this...  It needs to look good and fit the rifle.  That is, fit the rifle in terms of it's shape architecture, flow etc.  This can be a dead simple design or a over the top complicated one.  It doesn't matter.  Understanding design is advanced and can be very difficult.  The best place to start learning is to study original work.  This isn't something that many like or enjoy, but it's super important.

I'm working on some pretty complicated carving on a Woodsrunner rifle.  I'll probably have some photos to share in a couple of weeks. 

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Here is an example of some carving which with just a little re-design can fit the Woodsrunner quite well.  It's pretty complicated, but might offer some ideas.

https://www.jimkibler.net/rifle-10.html

[hanshi]

The carving you've drawn out is exquisite and I don't think it would "overshadow" the rifle.  Some of the posts have good ideas, but they aren't necessarily (obviously) your ideas.  I see no problem with your carving plan.   

[Jim Kibler]

Dave,
A friend of mine recently brought his woodsrunner over to my shop to discuss relief carving it.  He had done a bit of pencil sketching on the stock as you have.  The comment I gave him, and I feel it applies to your gun as well, is that the carving area behind the cheekpiece needs to be expanded a bit.  The carving pattern looks too truncated in my personal opinion.  My suggestion to him was to shorten up the rear of the cheekpiece.  We did some preliminary pencil sketching of this concept and really liked how changing the porportions seemed to balance out the entire buttstock.  I think the cheekpiece, as it was originally designed, looks great on a rifle decorated like the original but is too long for any complex relief carving. 
David

This is something to consider, especially if you want to carve behind the cheek in a more mainstream fashion.  But, with this said, there are a multitude of great design options to consider with the cheek in the current (original) configuration.  These options can be from simple to complex.  Study original work.   Jaegers are great for ideas in this regard.  Simpler work can be found on longrifles, especially those from the South.

I'll be showing some carving soon that is elaborate and fits behind the cheekpiece well.

[davec2]

First, thank you all for the great replies and sage advice.  I am in the midst of another rocket test program, so my time to work is very limited but my time to think is not, hence my question.  I very much appreciate the faith many of you have in my ability to not screw this beautiful kit up with too much embellishment.  Smart Dog....I understand completely what you wrote.  The only complication for me is that I am doing this for a friend who has no experience in the world of muzzle loaders (or guns of any type for that matter) and am trying to balance what he thinks he likes with what would be much more traditional.  (As Ed noted "no bunnies or deer heads"... ) Dave Rase, I thought the same thing about the length of the cheekpiece and I may very well shorten it....I also thought about extending it outward just because i personally like a more pronounced cheekpiece, but the contour above it does not lend itself to an easy extension like the ones I have done previously with ebony.  Jim K...thanks for the pictures and the comments about options that would be appropriate for this architecture.  C Deperro & Rich P....I need to look up the Feather Rifle and the Valentine Fondersmith rifle....I am unfamiliar with either of those.

Thanks again to all for your help and kind / encouraging thoughts.  These comments will give me something to talk about with the friend the rifle is being assembled for.  I don't think I will have to talk him out of bunnies or deer heads......but I may need to discourage some things akin to a chrome trailer hitch on a long rifle...

[rich pierce]

Dave, I’m not suggesting a filial relationship between the Woodsrunner and V. Fondersmith’s work, just an architectural resemblance in the buttstock.

Fondersmith rifle:

[davec2]

Rich,

Thanks so much for the pictures !  This will really help me explain to my friend what may be appropriate decoration on his rifle and what may not be.

[rich pierce]

Rich,

Thanks so much for the pictures !  This will really help me explain to my friend what may be appropriate decoration on his rifle and what may not be.

Nice that it’s got an English round-faced lock, too.