Author Topic: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS HI RES SCREW PHOTOS ADDED 5/9/23  (Read 2432 times)

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Bob Lienemann thought that some on the ALR would enjoy seeing some of the construction details of a rifle I have with a "J GRAEFF" signed barrel.



















































































« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 07:07:03 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 04:48:34 AM by Dennis Glazener »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19521
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2023, 02:13:03 PM »
Thanks! Great added information.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mattox Forge

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 404
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2023, 02:43:40 PM »
Thank you for posting this. This is a superb piece of art and also a prime example of how a gun should be documented. The annotated photos are great.

Mike

Offline Robert Wolfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Great X Grandpa
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2023, 04:22:24 PM »
Wow! Thanks for posting.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline parve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2023, 04:51:30 PM »
Thank you for posting these great pictures with annotation. I think this is the first time I’ve seen the inlets of an original rifle, a clear view of the barrel channel especially is very informative.
Phil A.

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2023, 05:01:05 PM »
Thanks for all of the replies so far, appreciate them all.

I forgot to post my "excuse" and explanation of why I wanted this rifle. It appears below.


"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Dwshotwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2023, 06:32:35 PM »
The annotated pictures are extremely helpful for those of us who are just starting out. I often find myself staring at pictures of rifles trying to figure out what an experienced viewer’s comments are referencing. Thank you for taking the time.
David Shotwell

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2023, 07:22:13 PM »
I have high resolution versions of each of the photos I posted so if you want some, contact me by PM through the Forum.

More importantly, I would welcome any comments, observations, and additional info on the Graeff brothers through PM if you wish.

Thanks,

Kent
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 08:53:16 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Carl Young

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 615
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2023, 10:34:12 PM »
Another "thank you" for the wonderful post...I'll spend hours trying to digest it all. You have done us a great service!

Regards,
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline Tom Currie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1294
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2023, 03:23:07 AM »
Thanks for posting this . A couple things to note for new builders. Having the front lock screw clearance notched in to barrel allows to have as minimal stock height in this area allowing for better overall architecture. Also the top lock bolt is closer to the breech than I expected it would which allows for stock drop quickly after the breech .

Offline Dobyns

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2023, 04:01:34 PM »
Fantastic information, thanks for posting!

Does anyone know who  of the "HB" stamp on the inside of the lockplate refers to?

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2023, 04:39:25 PM »
Thanks for your kind comments.

As to the "HB" stamp, see the post and discussion below from 2021 in which I asked the same question.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=66025.msg663472#msg663472
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline mountainman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 470
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2023, 04:48:56 PM »
A very detailed interesting post! Thanks for sharing!

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2023, 08:52:07 PM »
This thread could easily be included in the tutorial forum, as it clearly and accurately depicts many of the features that make these rifles so splendid.  Many of us do not have the privilege or opportunity to study original rifles and threads like this certainly fill that gap.  Thanks so much for posting it...for me it has re-affirmed details that I have tried to incorporate in my builds, and has opened up my mind in many areas of gunstocking.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2023, 09:07:39 PM »
This thread could easily be included in the tutorial forum, as it clearly and accurately depicts many of the features that make these rifles so splendid.  Many of us do not have the privilege or opportunity to study original rifles and threads like this certainly fill that gap.  Thanks so much for posting it...for me it has re-affirmed details that I have tried to incorporate in my builds, and has opened up my mind in many areas of gunstocking.

Thanks for the kind remarks!

I'm hoping that my post of this rifle may prompt a few of the collectors on this forum to do something similar with a rifle in their collection.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2023, 05:35:24 AM »
WESTbury has brought the thorough approach he used with arsenal production and military arms to the longrifle. He asks lots of questions, and is working with others to share what they have learned. Having written books, he knows how to illustrate and let the photos tell a story. Not many collectors are willing to disassemble a valuable old longrifle to show us how it went together. Thank you for this careful example of how that can be done.

He has included considerable research – combining knowledge of the men who stocked the rifles, the riflemen who carried them into battle, together with a sample rifle. This is a wonderful way to learn. Scott Gordon found the two Graeff brothers in Lancaster records, which changed the faulty assumptions in Kindig and repeated in recent books. There are links to other Graeff rifles to show what is similar and what varies, and a side discussion of locks made here or imported. Kudos for casting a wide net to date.

Tom and Taylor have mentioned the teaching value of a post like this.

As one example, the barrel lugs are visible in the ramrod channel. When I began stocking rifles, breaking through was considered bad form – we were encouraged to remove wisps of wood from the lug slots carefully and keep them hidden. But when I was fortunate to see old rifles, the barrel lugs were visible in the ramrod groove (and ramrod pipe tabs visible in the barrel channel). This got some of us to thinking that the stocker inlet the barrel, added the lugs, inlet and pinned. Then turned the rifle upside down and shaped the ramrod channel right down until he hit the lugs, before drilling for the ramrod. That provides a thin web and slim forend to the rifle. No need to guess how thick you want the web – let the rifle show you. This may or may not have been “taught”, but somehow this became standard.

Let’s discuss other details we see here that show us how a rifle was stocked. Thanks WESTbury for all your work over several years that resulted in this post! Bob

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2023, 02:03:45 PM »
Let’s discuss other details we see here that show us how a rifle was stocked. Thanks WESTbury for all your work over several years that resulted in this post! Bob

Bob,
Could not/would not have done it without your guidance and encouragement.
Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19521
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2023, 02:43:58 PM »
I was very interested to see the nose so secured by s screw to the barrel. Often seen as a construction technique that went out of use by the 1780s or so. When would we ballpark this rifle?

Also it appears that the trigger pin may be pretty close to the sear, resulting in a light trigger pull.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Brent English

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
    • Robust Wood Lathes
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2023, 08:02:16 PM »
Really great pictures.  The one that meant to most to me was the bushing in the tumbler bridle.  This took me back to when I was a teenager and just getting into black powder, about 50 years ago.  One of my Dad's friends had an original full stock percussion gun he loaned me to shoot.  The lock was quite wore out and I took it to an old-time machinist in town, also one of my Dad's friends. After truing up the surfaces on the tumbler, he put bushings in both the lock plate and probably also the bridle.  Charged me 50 cents.  Rifle shot very well and I was reluctant to return it. Not sure where it ended up.  Thanks for posting this, excellent documentation.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline parve

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2023, 01:02:34 AM »
I'm planning on building a Lancaster rifle next so I've been poring over these photos for the past few days and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the front lock bolt and how it interfaces with the ramrod hole. From 'View A' of the barrel channel we can see that the relief cut for the mainspring extends into the bottom octagon flat of the barrel channel. The side profile of the lock panel with the lock removed shows the front lock bolt hole completely below the plane of the bottom flat of the barrel. Despite the barrel being notched for what appears to be the front lock bolt with the 3/8" x 3/32" semi-circle groove, I can't see any evidence of the front lock bolt hole breaking into the barrel channel in 'View A'. Does anyone else see this or am I looking at things wrong/missing something?
Phil A.

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2023, 01:25:12 AM »
Despite the barrel being notched for what appears to be the front lock bolt with the 3/8" x 3/32" semi-circle groove, I can't see any evidence of the front lock bolt hole breaking into the barrel channel in 'View A'. Does anyone else see this or am I looking at things wrong/missing something?

You are quite correct.

The front lock bolt passes between the bottom of the barrel channel in the forestock and the ramrod. In fact I believe they may come into contact as the front lockbolt can not be turned when the ramrod is present. There is a definite interference. Once the ramrod is removed, the front lockbolt turns very easily. If you lock at the attitude of the lock in the stock, it is angled downward rear to front which is why the front lockbolt just barely, and I mean barely, misses the bottom of the barrel channel. I believe that the lock was set at this angle in order to keep the pan horizontal. Had it not been set at the angle the pan would have been lower at its rear which with flintlocks is not a good situation.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 01:47:02 AM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline WESTbury

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
  • Marble Mountain central I Corps May 1969
Re: "J GRAEFF" SIGNED RIFLE CONSTRUCTION DETAILS
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2023, 01:28:43 AM »
I have received a PM from a member of the ALR which is related to removing the breechplug and nose cap screw remnant. I have to check this out so I will Lock this thread until I follow-up on the member's suggestions.

Thanks for all of the replies thus far, they are appreciated.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964