Author Topic: Original Vent hole Sizes  (Read 1832 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Original Vent hole Sizes
« on: April 11, 2023, 01:01:49 AM »
Vent diameters on original flintlocks has been a puzzle to me as we almost never see an original with a vent that hasn't been worn quite large.  Does anyone know what a vent diameter would likely be on a 1750's flintlock fresh from the gunmaker?

I have a very nice rifle made in the style of Jacob Dickert.  If you could look over Dickert's shoulder, what would his drill bit look like?  To me it would be a real treat to watch guys like that work.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4349
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2023, 01:26:49 AM »
Well, just a sample of one, but my Bucks county rifle is original flint, and the touch hole is about 1/16".
John
John Robbins

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2023, 04:41:12 AM »
Thank you John. I appreciate your help.  Primary sources are valuable.
Best regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19482
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2023, 04:44:58 AM »
I had a very nice Spanish fowler barrel in original flint. Dave Person has it now. It has a liner if I recall and looked close to 1/16” to me.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2023, 07:42:39 AM »
The good thing about drilling the touchhole small, say 1/16" or less, is that if ignition is too slow it can always be drilled out a little larger.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Hank01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • Let's build a classic 18th century English style double barrel sporting gun!
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2023, 03:25:43 PM »
 Larry Pletcher (are you the same Larry Pletcher?) in cahoots with Fred Stutzenberger had an excellent article published in the February 2000 issue of MuzzleBlasts magazine addressing vent size. Here is the reprint:

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/touch-hole-ignition-timing/

 While it does not directly answer your question, it presents enough data to draw your own conclusion. Makers a few centuries past undoubtedly relied on the experience and success of each previous generation so, IMO, had no reason to deviate from what they already knew worked best. In this case it was 1/16" or slightly larger.

Hank
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 03:29:37 PM by Hank01 »
Yes, I did write a book. It's called The Classic English Double Barrel Click the little globe between my profile and e-mail link to check it out.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4176
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2023, 05:16:41 PM »
You'll have better luck looking at antique German rifles - liner aside - because they were not used to the extent that American rifles were used.  There are not many antique American rifles of the 18th century that are in clean enough condition to look at something like a vent diameter.  RCA42 might be one to look at, the 'ghost' Peter Resor rifle is another, the Reedy mentioned in another thread that will be coming up at auction, possibly the 1787 Peter Neihart...  there are some out there but not many.

By the time you get in to the 19th century you are generally looking at smaller bores and smaller barrels.  This all has an affect on things - the bore size, the size of the barrel breech, where there is internal coning or notching of the breech (most of them) etc.

I've had a lot of very nice German rifles through here, many with gold liners, and the average size I would say was between 1/16 and 5/64.

For rifles without liners, even coned on the inside, I still like to go a little bigger than 1/16 provided it's at least 45 to 50 cal.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4176
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2023, 05:18:26 PM »
BTW Larry have always enjoyed your articles and the scientific, intelligent approach that you've taken.  Great work!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline TDM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2023, 04:11:46 AM »
Agree with 1/16” to 5/64”. Proper coning is what’s important.

Offline Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2023, 04:36:08 AM »
I have an as new orignal barrel made in Belgium and the touch hole is sharp edged I would guess is was for a military musket as it has a bayonett lug. Touch hole on it is 7/64th it is .69 cal.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2023, 05:29:19 AM »
I have a Charles Grierson volunteer musket that is practically unfired...I don't remember the diameter of the touch hole (I can measure it tomorrow) but I do recall that it is coned from the outside not from the inside as many modern vent liners are made.

Offline Jennison

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2023, 04:55:06 PM »
Is it possible that many folks confuse large touch-holes as being "burned-out" when they're actually just coned from the outside?  I've seen large touch-holes on otherwise excellent condition guns.

Jennison
« Last Edit: April 12, 2023, 05:44:55 PM by Jennison »

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2023, 05:50:36 PM »
Pletch, at MESDA in Old Salem rests the completely silver mounted John Vogler rifle that was presented to one of Francis Marion’s officers in the early 1800s.  It apparently was never used and appears new. You may want to contact Blake Stevenson at the Vogler gunshop and ask the question. That rifle is as close to new at 200+ years as you are likely to find. God Bless, Marc

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15787
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2023, 06:54:12 PM »
I have an as new original barrel made in Belgium and the touch hole is sharp edged I would guess is was for a military musket as it has a bayonett lug. Touch hole on it is 7/64th it is .69 cal.
That's 0.1094". I would, however expect the vent to be quite large on a military musket.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4349
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2023, 10:06:44 PM »
I have an American made, 1800-ish, brass barreled pistol, original flint, and the touch hole is about 1/16" on that one too.
John Robbins

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2023, 04:51:45 PM »
I want to thank you all for your comments. Having little experience with original guns and no experience with guns with no wear, I consider myself pretty much uninformed about vents without wear. I appreciate all of your thoughts and am glad that there are existing originals in new or unfired condition.

I have had the pleasure to time a handful of original locks, but those were out of the gun, and I had no chance to look at the vents. Thank you all again for your help with my question.
Regards, Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2023, 04:54:40 PM »
BTW Larry have always enjoyed your articles and the scientific, intelligent approach that you've taken.  Great work!

Hi Eric, your comment means a great deal to me. Thank you very much.
Kind regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9681
Re: Original Vent hole Sizes
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2023, 07:19:14 PM »
IF a barrel has a vent coned from the inside it seems to me that they probably figured out the hard way to do more than that over their life times.An external taper with a 6/0 taper pin reamer will make a small funnel to connect the prime to the main charge and should be about as fast as a caplock IF the lock is a hot sparker.
Bob Roller
My perspective is that of a man who uses machinery to the extent that it can be effective and I doubt if small precision reamers were available 150 years ago unless you lived in Switzerland in a watch making community.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 08:25:07 PM by Bob Roller »