Author Topic: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time  (Read 2312 times)

Offline Badfinger

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Hello, I'm new to this site and it was suggested by a member on the Muzzleloading forum that I post it here. I’m looking for any information as to the builder and any additional history I might glean. Here’s what I know or have been told about the rifle and possibles bag. It was referred to by the family as the “Hog rifle” and passed down through the generations on the farm until the old farm was sold and was given to my father-in-law and then later to my wife in 2012.

It was on my wife’s family’s farm in Booneville Kentucky sometime after 1815 when they established their homestead. I believe is before percussion rifles were made. It was last fired was at the request of my father-in-law on July 4th, 2005, at my place in Ohio.

It was primarily used to kill hogs on the farm.

I haven’t removed the barrel and have not found any marking, not one.

The overall length of the rifle is 55.”

The barrel is octagon and measures 38 3/8” long and ¾” across the flats.

I was told the barrel was rebored sometime in the late 1800’s and it appears to be 36 caliber today.

The original stock was replaced by our great grandfather with one he made on the farm in the 1890’s. Popular belief is it was damaged by fire???

The possibles bag has been with the rifle as far back as anyone can recall and only repaired as necessary over the years.

I would appreciate any additional information you can provide, and we are not interested in selling it.

Thank You,
James















































Here is where it lives today.....




* While looking at this picture I just noticed the spoon hanging on the left side of the fireplace that was made on the farm and used to melt lead for molding bullets.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 05:54:38 PM by Badfinger »

Offline Levy

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2023, 05:31:10 PM »
Roughhewn and functional.  What a great family heirloom and you are fortunate to have the kit to go with it.  My Grandfather was born in 1896 and only remembered shooting a muzzleloading shotgun once and used his shirt tail for wadding.  James Levy
James Levy

Offline rich pierce

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2023, 05:35:44 PM »
I’m not at all expert in Appalachian rifles. Anyone see Soddy Daisy influences?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2023, 05:51:06 PM »
I have a flea market find that has many of the characteristics that your rifle has. It could have been made by the same person. All of the experts that I showed it to suggested that it was made in the southeastern region of Kentucky or just across the border in Tennessee.
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Offline Badfinger

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2023, 06:08:41 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts and comments guys.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2023, 06:21:30 PM »
Very nice thanks for sharing that History.
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2023, 06:42:56 PM »
 The only real whipping by great grandmother gave my granddad was when he ran out of patching for his squirrel rifle and cut patches out of his shirttail. I guess he wasn’t alone.
 I love this rifle. It epitomizes the hard scramble life lived back then. It also shows the ingenuity of people of the time.

Hungry Horse

Offline Molly

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2023, 07:43:19 PM »
A "line" on the right side of the stock is "soddy-like" but otherwise no Soddy features that I can see.  But what a super family item and the bag to boot!

Offline Tanselman

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2023, 08:19:18 PM »
You have a fascinating rifle. It clearly shows the signs of being restocked by a relatively competent woodworker, so your family story about the restocking is probably accurate. The barrel seems a little short for this type rifle and may have been shortened when restocked, but the ramrod pipes appear well spaced, so all the work was done at one time.

If it currently is about .36 caliber, it's almost too small of a caliber to be an early flint rifle from KY. Without seeing the bore at the muzzle, I'd guess it has not been rebored, but rather had the original rifling grooves worn away, making the bore look smooth from years of use... suggesting the original caliber was even smaller. The presumed original bore size, and even current caliber, are almost too small to indicate an actual reboring.

Many current details suggest a Tennessee origin, or perhaps a Tennessee rifle used as the pattern when your family rifle was restocked. It's true that southeastern KY guns from the Cumberland Plateau region strongly resemble TN rifles as you get closer to the TN line, and this rifle could be from KY... but the restock gives the gun a strong TN appearance. The triggers, a little on the "clunky" side, hint at a TN origin more than a KY origin, as do the exceptionally thin butt and abrupt "break" where the comb drops to meet the wrist. The long 2-screw style tang could be either KY or TN. The current lock appears to be original percussion, and while it could have been changed when the gun was restocked, the smallish bore and lock combination suggest [to me at least] the rifle, even in its original form, was probably percussion.

It's always a great, and rather rare, occurrence today to have a rifle still accompanied by its original bag & horn... and even better when there is family history behind it. You have a family heirloom that most of us don't have, and at least a few of us are a little envious of.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 11:22:50 PM by Tanselman »

Offline 120RIR

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2023, 09:41:42 PM »
I'm not a Southern rifle guy and don't have anything material to add to the discussion other than to say wow...what a neat documented rifle and accompanying set. I hope your next generations appreciate it so it stays in the family instead of being sold off some day for a few lousy bucks.  Congratulations!

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2023, 10:35:56 PM »
What you have is a true treasure. So seldom are the rifle and kit kept together. To add to that for it to have been kept in one family with the history behind it is amazing. Treasure it an proudly display it for all to see.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline JBJ

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2023, 02:30:21 PM »
A treasure indeed! I have never seen a drum configured like that and, although there is a cap tin in the kit, I'll bet that the little horn is a cap horn. It's so very special to have such a family treasure. Thanks for sharing.

J.B.

Offline AZshot

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2023, 05:55:43 PM »
Thank you for showing this great piece of your family history, which is really a history of pioneer mountain America too.

Offline Levy

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2023, 09:18:15 PM »
JBJ,  I've seen a number of rifles with that left on the drum for easy removal.  I think it was supposed to have been cut off after it was fitted/timed, but wasn't always.  I had one like that which was NOS that I purchased from A. W. Petersen's Gun Shop in Mt. Dora, FL.  It is a remnant of the forging process.  James Levy
James Levy

Offline Tanselman

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2023, 10:59:09 PM »
The extended square shank on the percussion side lug is/was common on southern guns from some areas in KY and TN. The frequency of seeing it suggests it was the preferred method in those areas for wrenching out the side lug when removal was needed.

Jim, I visited that gun shop in Mt. Dora multiple times during all the winters my wife and I spent in The Villages, FL, but I never saw a muzzle loader worth picking up in that shop. You must have been there on a lucky day!

Shelby Gallien

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2023, 03:06:35 AM »
   First it is a very neat gun and a great family heirloom. But I don't see any Soddy influence. But what a cool gun and bag...

Offline HIB

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2023, 08:32:59 AM »
A point of interest.

In one of your photos you display the gun attached or hanging on the fireplace mantle.   Underneath the gun there appears to be a stove insert.

You have a treasure too be sure, however, it will not remain in its present condition for long if you keep it hung over a very hot heat source.  The wood will dry beyond repair and distort it original intent.

From all I can gather in my 80 years the idea of hanging a gun over the fireplace is a false conception.   Most were hung over an exit door or propped in the corner near the exit door.   I surmise the reasoning was quite simple:  Have the gun ready and within reach when the need for its use was required.

To test this theory hold your arm over the hot stove the next time you warm the house or enjoy a fire.  It won't take you long to find a different place to display the gem you have shown us in the pics you have submitted.

Regards,  HIB

Offline Badfinger

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2023, 03:06:15 PM »
Once again, I am blown away by the wealth of knowledge and willingness to share it on the forum! I thank you all for filling in some of the gaps about this old rifle.  I am the current caretaker and will pass it to my children when the time comes. They also share a love of firearms and highly value this piece of our family history.

HIB, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness and keen awareness about the fireplace. My home was built in 1840 and has been remodeled over the years and unfortunately this included the removal of all seven fireplaces. The fireplace in the living room only has an electric fireplace insert that gives the illusion of a real fire but no heat.

Here's my daily shooter than I pieced together and refinished from parts I found all over the country, it is a .50 Thompson Hawken:


Thank you all,
James


« Last Edit: July 22, 2023, 03:09:17 PM by Badfinger »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2023, 05:02:35 PM »
A marvelous and intact old rifle made with a dedication to need and $4 worth of tools.The need for a meat getter and home defense well met
I wish it was mine.I just noticed the T/C and your comment about it being "pieced"together. Back in the early 1970's when these guns came
to the market they were assembled by people who knew NO thing about breech plugs and stress fractures thru the threads and there were several bad injuries caused by failures at the breech. I had one in my sjop that was so tight that even a BIG man with a good wrench could not break it loose.Have you had the plug out of this one as did it take extraordinary effort to remove it? If so,I would not fire it.
In 1973 a magazine was started that w dedicated to condemning bad practices and low level production work in muzzle loading guns and was called The Buckskin Report and published by the late John Baird in Big Timber,Montana.When thes ealy guns were assembled rhe breech plugs were castings ad that's  OK but when the octagon on the plug did not align with the octagon barrel a long wrench was used to "line it up" and a fracture line thru the threads is very possible.YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THIS and so does everyone who owns one.
Some of our Canadian friends have uncovered other flaws in these rifles and maybe they can add to this and they ARE knowledgeable.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: July 31, 2023, 11:34:48 PM by Bob Roller »

Online dadybear1

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2023, 09:26:53 PM »
REMEMBER THE MOVIE "SGT YORK"???   HE CARRIED A MUZZLE LOADER-THEN GOT INDOCTRINATED WITH THE 03A3 SPRINGFIELD... DURING WW1---MUZZLE LOADERS BEEN ROUND FOR 300 PLUS YEARS---

Offline LynnC

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Re: We Have This Old Rifle That Has Been In Our family a Very Long Time
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2023, 04:51:42 AM »
D Bear. Please take the caps lock off. Thank you
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......