Ever had a barrel that you can't keep the rust out of?

[roundball]

Bore butter is the lube I use for 99% of my shooting...and that's why I was such a firm believer in steaming hot water...yes, I have to dry the bore right after getting the water out to avoid flash rust  but that's simple to do...just "dry the bore right after getting the water out"...not 15 minutes later after having a cup of coffee or something.

Then I run large sloppy, dripping wet WD40 patches up and down a few times to ensure theres no moisture left, dry patch that out, let the barrel heat work a bit then more sloppy wet WD 40 patches and rack it muzzle down.

I saw a post years ago about comparing the effects of using cold water vs. hot water in terms of keeping bore butter from building up in a bore and it goes like this.
Bore butter lubes are sort of sticky and can leave behind a film like egg residue on a breakfast plate.
If you hold that plate under a cold water faucet, nothing happens...but if you hold it under hot water...in just seconds the egg residue melts and slides right off the plate.

While I'm sure there are modern chemicals that will produce the same cleaning results, steaming hot water & dishwashing detergent will prevent build up.

[Gene Carrell]

If you believe that residual rust in the bore is the problem, get some RB-17 from RB's Treasures in Texas. It will absolutely remove all rust, copper and lead fouling. It will  remove the browning as well, so be careful. It   is environmentally friendly and is non-hazardous for shipping.   http://www.rb-treasures.com/

[hanshi]

Maybe it's not rust at all but the leftovers (seasoning) from your patch lube.
That stuff will coat a bore under heat and even after the bore is clean it still looks like rust on a clean patch.
Been doing this stuff since '76. Back then my lube was Crisco and I cleaned with hot soapy water followed by any type gun oil, and even down here in our 100% humidity our barrels simply did not rust. It was only years later after I was bewitched by claims of "1000's of shots, no cleaning" did I begin to find rust in a clean lubed bore.
Point is; I had a control to reference the problem against. And that control was all those rustless years with crisco. I ended up cleaning all my bores with brake cleaner to get rid of the seasoning. Now no more rust.

I've never been totally convinced about flash rust.  None of my barrels have dulled or darkened over the years and some of them are nearly 45 years old and good as new.  I agree that grease lubes such as bore butter & Crisco seem to show a gray to brownish stain on patches near the end of the cleaning process.  Nowdays I use mostly Hoppes #9 Plus and it seems to stain as well.  My belief (can't prove it so won't bet my dog on it) is that something in the combustion process leaves this residue in the bore.  In fact the only time I never, ever experienced the brownish coloration was way back when I use to use a strange concoction that came with my new H&A Heritage underhammer.  A good supply of it was furnished with the gun as was a nice leather gun case.  I still have the gun case and half a can of the lube.  Personally, I think it was some sort of surplus military solvent as the cans were old and painted black.  It smelled familiar though I could never figure out what it was.  It did make good patch lube and didn't result in "flash rust".

[Jerry V Lape]

An alternative to steel wool is to use some of the green scotchbrite pad like your wife has around the sink.  Don Getz put me on to this when I was having trouble with something cutting patches in my new barrel.  After about 50 strokes with the scotchbrite the bore was shiny and now more patch problems.  Don said it didn't  hunt his barrels so that is good enough for me.  Now if I get a really dirty bore that water and ballistol won't resolve, I get the scotchbrite, add some ballistol and within a few strokes all is well. 

[eagle24]

Guys, I think I am going nuts!  I swear I posted a couple of replies to this thread today and they are not here now?

Anyway, here goes again.  I think I have found all or part of the problem.  There is a major fitting problem with the breech plug.  The plug fits up tight tang to top flat joint, but the inside seal where the nose of the breech plug should shoulder against the inner mating surface is $#@*!  I think the guy that built this rifle just filed the nose of the plug until it was out of play in him tightening the plug to get the alignment he wanted.  Anyway it is anything but sealed and there is definite migration of fouling, water, oil, whatever to the breech plg threads.  There seems to be no major damage and it is all cleaned up, but now I have to address how to fix it.  A new plug would not be out of the question.  The tang is very basic about 2-1/2" or so and filed to a gentle point, but I know it will be a PITA to fit a new plug and make the tang match the inlet.  Could I MIG weld the nose of the plug, anneal it, and file it to fit the inner shoulder of the barrel? or is this a bad idea?  Let me hear some suggestions.  I would also consider a new barrel.  A straight GM barrel isn't all that much and I wouldn't say this one is exactly a top shelf shooter.

[roundball]

You're not going nuts...I read that post that started with the statement about the breechplug, etc...dunno where it went

[eagle24]

You're not going nuts...I read that post that started with the statement about the breechplug, etc...dunno where it went

Thanks Roundball.  Something weird going on with the forum or this thread.  Oh well, I've been getting my stuff together to go hunting in the morning with my new rifle I just finished.  4:30 is gonna come early so I'm calling it a night.  I'll figure out tomorrow how long I can sit and still have time to get a deer dressed before having Thanksgiving dinner with the family.

[Dan]

Guys, I think I am going nuts!  I swear I posted a couple of replies to this thread today and they are not here now?

Anyway, here goes again.  I think I have found all or part of the problem.  There is a major fitting problem with the breech plug.  The plug fits up tight tang to top flat joint, but the inside seal where the nose of the breech plug should shoulder against the inner mating surface is $#@*!  I think the guy that built this rifle just filed the nose of the plug until it was out of play in him tightening the plug to get the alignment he wanted.  Anyway it is anything but sealed and there is definite migration of fouling, water, oil, whatever to the breech plg threads.  There seems to be no major damage and it is all cleaned up, but now I have to address how to fix it.  A new plug would not be out of the question.  The tang is very basic about 2-1/2" or so and filed to a gentle point, but I know it will be a PITA to fit a new plug and make the tang match the inlet.  Could I MIG weld the nose of the plug, anneal it, and file it to fit the inner shoulder of the barrel? or is this a bad idea?  Let me hear some suggestions.  I would also consider a new barrel.  A straight GM barrel isn't all that much and I wouldn't say this one is exactly a top shelf shooter.

Mr. Hall, if no one else offers advice on the issue of your breech plug fit, put yourself directly in touch with SPG.  Lacking contact via PM, let me know and I'll give you a #.

WD-40........Water Displacement, 40th attempt.  Thank NASA for that one.  Take a clue from its name as to intended use. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

It is a useful commodity, but given its volatility not especially a good rust preventative.   So far as ML cleaning goes, maybe good to flush water from the bore, but don't depend upon it to deter rust.  Your arms may not rust after treatment with WD40, but WD40 is not where the credit belongs.

[Daryl]

 

[Pete G.]

How large of a gap are we talking about on the plug? You could cut a stainless steel disc to act as a shim and get both a tight fit and a non rusting breech surface.

[Long John]

Dan,

Right On!  WD-40 was developed to cure a problem with the corrosion of copper conductors that were insulated with PVC insulation.  Residual chlorine was combining with the water that was adsorbed on the copper conductors making hydrochloric acid.  The key to making PVC insulated wire is removing the water from teh copper conductor.  Hence the invention of WD-40  -  wire-dry #40.

WD-40 is a mixture of aliphatic esters and other petroleum distilates that are designed to form an azeotrope with water and carry the water away.  The is a minute quantity of a wax also added.  Since the formation of rust from iron REQUIRES water if a barrel is thoroughly dried and kept in a dry environment it will not rust.  But if you take that same barrel and move to a humid environment then water molecules will attache to the surface of the steel (adsorption) and the electrolytic oxidation of the iron atoms in the steel can commence.

You can try Ezz-Ox oil or bear grease.  I prefer the latter as a rust preventative.

Best Regards,
JMC

[Daryl]

Interesting, Long John - I always thought WD meant Water Displacement & that fish oil was in the mix.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If you have had rust in your barrel, then it has cancer.  It will continue to get worse and worse until you cut it out.  Your barrel needs to be lapped, and be prepared to spend an entire day lapping.  But it will remove the steel of the bore down to at least the bottom of the pits that have formed, and where the continuing rust is coming from.  Your barrel can be saved, but it is a long day of tedium.  If you do not, it will degrade to the point that you will not be able to shoot is without thoroughly cleaning between shots.  And it will continue to rot - that's what cancer does.  I've been there.

[eagle24]

If you have had rust in your barrel, then it has cancer.  It will continue to get worse and worse until you cut it out.  Your barrel needs to be lapped, and be prepared to spend an entire day lapping.  But it will remove the steel of the bore down to at least the bottom of the pits that have formed, and where the continuing rust is coming from.  Your barrel can be saved, but it is a long day of tedium.  If you do not, it will degrade to the point that you will not be able to shoot is without thoroughly cleaning between shots.  And it will continue to rot - that's what cancer does.  I've been there.

Taylor, did you read the part about my findings with the breech plug?  (see my reply above)  I think this is the culprit.  I have the plug out and the barrel clean.  It may still need to be lapped, but I have an idea the rust was coming from right at the breech.  I really don't know what I should do.  It will be a chore to fix the breech plug and get it indexed properly.   Then as you say, I may need to lap the barrel to ensure all the rust is gone.  It looks good now, but I have to do something about the breech plug.


Pete,

The builder filed crude facets around the nose of the breech plug.  I think he was just trying to keep it from coming in contact when he tightened it rather than worrying about trying to properly fit it.  I will try and post some pictures.

[Ben I. Voss]

Greg, check out the thread on"rebreeching a barrel on a finished gun" on Gunbuilding from Oct 26th. It may answer your questions on your current situation. Good luck.

[Daryl]

GHall - if the rust is at the plug's threads only, and not in the bore, how does it get on the sides of a patch?  If the threads are proud, they'll pull the patch off the jag, normally.\

if you run a patch 1/2 way down and out or almost down to the plug and out, will it have rust on it?

[eagle24]

GHall - if the rust is at the plug's threads only, and not in the bore, how does it get on the sides of a patch?  If the threads are proud, they'll pull the patch off the jag, normally.\

if you run a patch 1/2 way down and out or almost down to the plug and out, will it have rust on it?

No, I agree it is in the bore.  I don't know for sure whether running a patch 1/2 way down or 3/4 (whatever) would return rust or a clean patch.  I wondered the same thing myself.  I was just thinking that the fouling and trapped moisture around the breech might be contributing to the rusting in the bore? I don't think the threads are "proud" but there are definite gaps where the breech plug seats inside the barrel.  Moisture and fouling get in and cannot be gotten out without removing the plug.

[Daryl]

If, after drying the bore as best you can, you flush the bore well with WD40, so it runs and is blasted out the vent, it should carry most or all of that moisture with it.
If there are gaps, it needs a proper fitting plug.

[eagle24]

If there are gaps, it needs a proper fitting plug.

There are definitely gaps, or rather areas that the face of the plug do not contact the shoulder inside the barrel as they should.  If you can imagine filing 8 or 10 flats around the edge of the face of the plug on about a 30 degree angle (crude flats at that), that's what he did.  I painted it with red lipstick, screwed it back in to the index marks, and it made contact in 3 places which probably was about 20% of the area which should be 100% contact.  In light of the problems I have had, I am considering a new barrel.  It is a straight
Green Mountain.  I'm not sure it would be a whole lot more work than refitting a plug.  Aside from this issue, it's a well made and nice looking rifle.

[Kaintuckkee]

One thing I might add here is from experience......be sure your patches fit the bore very tightly,this is especially true in the deeper groove barrels,the breech plug fit might be causing your problem and probably should be corrected

[hammerhead]

yes indeed

[long carabine]

 Good old 50 weight motor oil keeps rust away.

[Stonewall Creek]

i had the same problem with a couple of barrels and the only way i could keep rust out of them was soak kano in the barrel leave the saturated rag in the bottom and you would not beleive how much rust that removes and after a while it will protect it and keep it from coming back . after that when the bore is good and clean and you are not getting anymore rust out of it then put your protectant oil in it this will most likely take a couple of weeks saturating the cloth every couple days.