Origin of this Baker and rifle percussion conversion

[Mattox Forge]

Hello all,

I recently acquired this British Baker P1800 Infantry rifle that was converted to percussion at some point in its working life. I would like to learn more about where and when the the conversion was done. I have seen similar conversions on guns that are attributed to Prussian or German gunsmiths, but those are sales descriptions, so not necessarily the best source of information.









How the safety device works





The marked converted parts


Examples of the original assembly markings


Here is an example of this type of safety devise on a German rifle:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__A_FINE_AND_BEAUTIFULLY_DECORATED_GERMAN_PERCUS-LOT468800.aspx
I have not seen them attributed to any other countries.

Thanks,

Mike

[Pukka Bundook]

It looks a very nice rifle Mike.
I was going to say German or Low countries but you already know that!
Can you give us a close up of the marks on the new parts?
It is a top class conversion.
The new breech is very well fitted.
Are there any signs of the original proofs?
also, any marks on the stock or butt plate ?
Stock marks on sideplate panel, right side of buttstock, toe of the stock or ramrod channel??

Lock work would be nice to see as well!

[Hlbly]

Looks Austrian to me.

[Mattox Forge]

Pukka,
Here are some more detailed photos.

Lock work






Face of breech witness mark filed into lock after pan removed




Stamps on conversion parts and converted parts










Remaining King's proof




Stamps on brass parts
"13" on thumb piece


"12" on butt tang


"D: OF B: C" on rear of buttplate. I have contacted the The Buccleuch Collection to see if it may have passed through their hands at some point.




Storekeeper's stamp




a trace of a Broad Arrow?
Unmodified image on left, arrow outline overlay on right

Area of above images on right butt


Other stamps on wood
Behind trigger guard on bottom of stock




tail of left side lock flat




Under side plate


In ramrod channel
Just behind front pipe


Behind rear pipe


None apparent on the toe, but, who knows. The other ones are indistinct, or almost invisible. This rifle has clearly been well used in its working life.


Other interesting things. I have noted on two, this being the second, British Ordnance guns, that there is evidence that hot irons were used in some portion of the making of nail holes. What is to be made of this?





The patch box compartment was enlarged, in the field, it appears.


Mike

[Mattox Forge]

More staring at the butt stock looking for the arrow.
I found this rifle for sale. It has the compartments broken out in exactly the same way.
https://tortugatrading.com/products/copy-of-a-rare-british-military-pattern-1800-1815-1823-flintlock-baker-infantry-rifle-1

Tortuga Trading's Baker




My Baker:




The Board of Ordnance stamp on TOrtuga's is interesting. It looks like it might have been a broken stamp, or the stamper just missed the flat of the stock/



This caused me to re-look at the stock on mine.
The traces of marking left on the stock look similar and I know I am probably seeing things, but I can't help it.









It is nearly impossible to get the camera image to show what the eye can see. It's very conjectural, but based on the other stamps that are present on the stock some trace of a BO stamp should be on the butt stock.

Mike

[Pukka Bundook]

Wewll Mike,
It appears to have all the right marks in the right places!

The question therefore is, where was it converted and used after BO?
I see no sold out of service or other marks.
I have my own possible ideas on this, but prefer not to muddy the waters.

Can I attach a link to this thread on British Militaria Forums?
They  will have a much better idea than myself!

I believe you have visited there before with your questions.  If you wish to put this rifle up on that forum yourself, I will keep out of it !
It Is a marvelous piece!

[Mattox Forge]

Pukka,

Thanks, it is rather a nice one as I am finding as I dig into it. It was also relatively affordable as Bakers go. Entirely shootable, so I will shoot it. The way it is converted also allows for a non destructive conversion back to flint. I can make a new lock and a new breech and test it as a flintlock.

I have a thread on there regarding the markings.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/questions-about-the-markings-on-a-pattern-1800-bak-t31987.html

I was posting here to see if there can be any light shed on the particulars of the mechanical conversion.

Mike

[Mattox Forge]

This type of safety device was built in the 1830's and 40's in the Shul region. Did the Austrians also build them?

This is an example from Shul. Probably by Johann Valentin Funk (April 4, 1778- Feb. 2, 1850)  (https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/german-gunmaking-centers/archive-suhl/) in the 1830's or 40's.

From https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/fine-german-jaeger-percussion-rifle-by-valentin-f-329-c-40fe81e8ab

Another by Funk

Amazing work

C. G. Haenel Suhl, percussion gun of the Prussian cavalry, M-1850


This one is from Meiningen reported as 1845. Meiningen is 13 miles from Shul.


The safety is not common, and appears to have been in use for a relatively short period of time.

Was it ever used in the US.

Mike

[Elnathan]

The checkering on the wrist is interesting too. Some sort of officer's model, or later addition?

For comparison, here is a privately purchased Baker-type that is considerably nicer than the standard issue: https://gunsmagazine.com/our-experts/an-officers-rifle/

[Mattox Forge]

Elnathan,
I believe that the checkering was added at some point after issue. I am guessing that it was probably not done by the gunsmith who did the percussioning, as his work is too good to support the relatively crude workmanship that the checkering exhibits. It is possible that it was done in the field by a trooper, although I think it unlikely. I doubt that the person who had it converted to percussion would have done it himself, unless he did it before he had the means to convert it to percussion. This is not the only such example of crude checkering I have seen on a Baker rifle. I came across another example recently on an Ordnance issue Baker. This one was in a recent Anthony Cribb auction. So it is an outside possibility that modifications by armorers may have been sanctioned by the officers for troopers to have the checkering added as it could improve accuracy. This is pure conjecture though.



https://www.antonycribb.com/auction/lot/lot-183---a-650-calibre-flintlock-baker-rifle/?lot=795&so=0&st=baker%20rifle&sto=0&au=6&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=1&pp=96&pn=1&g=1

I have a rifle similar to the one in the link that you posted. It has different features, and was set up for a bayonet bar, but does not have the bar actually fitted. It is interesting that, even though it is obviously a very high end rifle by a high end builder, there are a few noticeable mistakes in the wrist checkering. So one does not know when the checking on the Baker was applied.








some more discussion of that one is here.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/viewtopic.php?p=280033#p280033

Mike