BALANCE vs. MUZZLE HEAVY

[IRONSIGHT]

  Before joining this site I thought I knew a little about BP shooting, now I realize I know nothing at all. Finally went to my first all traditional shoot last month, and found out once again I knew nothing. Feeling overwhelmed with info. Like a young child I'm trying to soak all the info from this site, and those I have met at the shoot.
  Well lets get to the point. I hear pepole saying you don't want a muzzle heavy rifle. But watching the form, stance of some really good shooters I've noticed that some were holding their rifles way back on the forearm causing the rifle to be muzzle heavy anyways. Is this because their rifles are not well balanced ,or
what? For myself I like a rifle that is is already muzzle heavy, but what do I know I'm just a dumb dutchman.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Even a rifle that has a serious swamp to the barrel has a balance point, and to get it to hold better on the target, the shooter may get better results from having some of the weight forward of that point.  A rifle with a parallel barrel in comparison, requires that you hold it further out toward the muzzle to get a similar feel.  The reason that these longrifles are so much fun to shoot offhand is that they have weight forward that a modern rifle lacks. 

[Daryl]

Without muzzle weight, the rifle is difficult to hold. Note that most all modern offhand rifles have adjustable or moveable muzzleweights. There is a point where a rifle holds best.

Harry Pope, the most famous barrel maker at the turn of the century, felt a man's offhand rifle shold be 16 pounds whereas a women would be best served with a 12 pound rifle.  THAT is muzzle weight. They used hooked Swiss-style butt plates with hooks to help hold the weight.

I find a rifle that weighs in the 9 to 12 pound range to be the best for my offhand shooting. This weight has reduced from what used to shoot best for me - I'm getting older.

An expample of foreward weight. Back in the 70's I once shot a 98/100 on a standard 100 yard prone target with 1 1/8" bull's eye, 1/2" X. The rifle was a club menber's umlimited .308 benchrest rifle with 20X scope weighing 22 pounds. The 2 nines were just underneath the 10 ring, at 6 o'clock.  I couldn't hold the rifle, as it pulled me forward, slowly, so I mounted it high with the hairs just over the bull and squeezed off the shot as they fell into the 10 ring.  i tink i got 5 or 6 X's with that rifle.  It was exceptionally tiring to shoot.

So - what does this mean - try different rifles with different configurations and find one that 'holds' for you. Taylor's little Kuntz rifle, with an "A" weight .40 barrel at 44" long holds beautifully for me & him.  It seems to have the correct amount of forward weight and balance. I hold my off hand finger on the entry pipe, with the index finger running forward on the entry pipe. For me, this reduces the windage error as I'm pointing my finger at the target, and I can concentrate mostly on vertical error.

[BrownBear]

I have both muzzle-heavy rifles and ones with the balance point right between my hands.  For me each is kind of a specialty case, and where one works well the other suffers.

Muzzle-heavy is great for deliberate, carefully aimed shots with lots of time for the shot, whether on the range or on a hunt.  It stinks for quick shots at running game in close cover, however.

With the balance point right between your hands, the rifle is great for quick shots at moving game in close cover.  It's just more "responsive" like a very good upland shotgun.  It stinks for range use or longer range deliberate shots at game, though. 

Both types of balance have merit, but very different applications.  That's why I own both.

[Dave Faletti]

I hold my rifle close to the trigger guard since I brace my support arm against my chest.  Makes it a lot more steady for me.  Its not at the balance point.  I prefer lighter rifles that are not muzzle heavy but I do like longer barrels. Kind of a conflict in preferences but swamped barrels do well for me.

[George Sutton]

Don't count yourself short. Muzzleloading shooting is a game of continuous learning. The trick is to take out of it what works for you.

I like muzzle heavy rifles, that's what works for me. I shoot a ten pound fifty-eight caliber rifle with a 47 inch barrel. I have a friend who uses a little six pound .32. He shoots as well as I do. Each rifle has it's own personality as does each shooter.

When you find what works for you and your rifle, stay with it and don't change anything.

You can drive yourself nuts trying different things everytime you go to the range. It's fun to experiment but don't get crazy over it. If it works , use it, if it doesn't, forget it.

Everyone has an opinion and a system. That's what works for them.

Practice (IMHO) is more important than anything else you do.

Have fun, that's the biggest thing.

Centershot

[Jerry V Lape]

Weight and balance are pretty easy to adjust.  One method is to add a brass ramrod if the gun is too light forward.  You actually adjust balance by moving your forward hand either further forward or further rear.  Put some lead weight in your patchbox area to add total weight or to shift balance point rearward.  Just find out what you prefer.  Any really heavy rifle, is going to want  a hook butt plate to help you hold it.  A couple ounces of lead under the barrel way out at the muzzle end of a 44" barrel is going to make a significant difference due to the leverage. 

[hanshi]

I would say that in general a muzzle heavy rifle is much easier to fire accurately at targets and makes a better off hand gun.  For hunting nothing quite compares with a swamped barrel.

My EV .50 is long and muzzle heavy and I do my best off hand shooting with it.  It is also great for deliberate shots taken from a hunting stand.  Can't shoot quick with it, though.  In the woods is where my swamped barrel and lighter barrel rifles shine.  They are quick and I can hold one mounted far longer than the few seconds the EV takes to wear me out.

[IRONSIGHT]

A little muzzle heavy for target shooting, and a well balanced rifle for quick shots while hunting. Don't tell my wife but I guess I need to build more then one rifle.

[Daryl]

A little muzzle heavy for target shooting, and a well balanced rifle for quick shots while hunting. Don't tell my wife but I guess I need to build more then one rifle.

1 rifle?  Good heavens man - by all means build several.  You do need several calibres anyway, plus a smoothbore, of course.

[IRONSIGHT]

A little muzzle heavy for target shooting, and a well balanced rifle for quick shots while hunting. Don't tell my wife but I guess I need to build more then one rifle.

1 rifle?  Good heavens man - by all means build several.  You do need several calibres anyway, plus a smoothbore, of course.

  That was a joke!!! I have plans for several rifles a .32, .45, .50, .54, and at least one smoothie at minimum. But like I said don't tell my wife. Ha Ha

[Stonewall Creek]

to me it depends on if you want to shoot traditional or shoot competive if you want to shoot competitive the heavy barrel is better with a high sight this will keep  your barrel from having allot of barrel wave you cannot shoot what you can not see the heavy barrel also takes away heart beat it will also take away allot of barrel rise when it is fired i shoot a 1in 40cal 38in it weights 10.5 pounds i have shot allot against great shooters i would say just about all of them shoot a straight heavy barrel i am sure as you do your homework and do some traveling you will find out these things and how many great shooters their are , hope you enjoy competive shooting as much as i have thanks troy

[Daryl]

Weight and weight distribution is one thing, but stock design is another very important feature in shootability. This is somewhat subjective, but the hooks on a butt plate as in a plains rifle will not help much or at all if the rifle doesn't fit you to a tee with whateveryou happen to be wearing. In other words, I find those butt plates with curved crescents need to be close to a perfect fit, than a flat butt plate .  Flat butts help in this regard due to ones ability to move the shoulder forward easily with a butt that fits into the shoulder's pocket, not in the pit or out on the arm and thus, bring the eye in direct line with the sights.

English designs excel in being 'shootable', not only on target, but being quick shooters for hunting as well.  Jaegers also fit well for target and sporting purposes, almost as well as an English hunting stock design.  My English designed 14 bore is a good expample. With it's 30" barrel of .69 cal. at 9 1/2 pounds, it's weight is perfect for absorbing recoil, which long range (past 50 yards to 300 yards) requires - ie: heavy charges are needed for longer range shooting and with a narrow butt, especially a Hawken type, there are limits to bore sizes before recoil becomes painful.  It is also light enough to allow packing all day, and swings like a slightly heavy upland gun.

The larger the bore, the better is the long range accuracy, all else being equal.  Stock design is very important here.  I would no sooner shoot a 9 1/2 pound Hawken in .69, with my hunting charges, than someones 4 bore single.  Not going to happen, yet the English cap-lock design is very comfortable to shoot.  The heavier ball is less effected by the elements & therefore is more accurate. Prime amongst the elements, is the one of consistency in the ball itself. The larger the ball, the more inconsistencies it can have and remain just as accurate, or more accurate than a smaller ball.

Reasonably good casting quality with a minor defect in a larger ball can reward the shooter with remaining exceptional accuracy, whereas the same defect in a smaller ball can more greatly effect the accuracy and cause fliers.

Barrel weight and gun balance are only 2 aspects of the shootability of a rifle - or smoothbore for that matter. Design and fit are 2 more very important traits that must be studied.

[Roger Fisher]

to me it depends on if you want to shoot traditional or shoot competive if you want to shoot competitive the heavy barrel is better with a high sight this will keep  your barrel from having allot of barrel wave you cannot shoot what you can not see the heavy barrel also takes away heart beat it will also take away allot of barrel rise when it is fired i shoot a 1in 40cal 38in it weights 10.5 pounds i have shot allot against great shooters i would say just about all of them shoot a straight heavy barrel i am sure as you do your homework and do some traveling you will find out these things and how many great shooters their are , hope you enjoy competive shooting as much as i have thanks troy

Darn well stated and most of us would agree.  Glad to see your post and hope you are doing well and getting well!

[C. Cash]

Great info fellas!  Thanks.

[IRONSIGHT]

Daryl,
Thanks for the great post. This is why I love this site thiers always someone forcing you to think a little harder. Great now I have smoke coming out my ears.

[Daryl]

TKS - I should have mentioned that the early American designs similar to the Lancaster, with wide, quite flat  butts are easy shoulder well too, and benefit from a longer swamped barrel, or shorter straight barrel.