I would like comments regards to origin/date on this rifle (warning photo heavy)

[Dennis Glazener]

The rifle is signed and I know where it was made, but out of curiosity, I would like to hear your thoughts on where you think it was originally made.

The barrel is 36” long, 45 Cal, with no markings except the cursive signature, the rib is screwed to the barrel, mic’s 1.058 at the breech and 1.028” at the muzzle.

The percussion lock has:
T.NEAVE & SONS
  CINCINNATI
engraved on the side plate.
Behind the hammer, it has a hunter/marsh/flying duck scene.

The rifle looks very well made, has a VG bore, and is in shooting condition. It has a single-stage set trigger with no half cock. The butt plate has a copper rivet fastening the BP toe to the toeplate. The cross key is made of brass and the escutcheon appears to be of German Silver.

From “The Highroad.org” forum “Jim K” stated:

Thompson Neave and Son were the successors to T & C Neave (the C is Charles). T Neave & Son operated at 83-85 Main St., Cincinnati from 1849 to 1860”.

However, they did not make that gun; **he is not referring to this rifle but the one on the original post on that site** The Neaves were makers of gun locks and supplied gunsmiths in the Ohio area and west. If like other lock makers, they probably also supplied percussion bolsters, nipples, triggers, etc. to the trade.

The barrel is 36” long, 45 Cal, with no markings except the cursive signature, the rib is screwed to the barrel, mic’s 1.058 at the breech and 1.028” at the muzzle.

The bag/horn/patch knife and 45 cal balls were with the rifle when purchased from a family that it had been in for a number of years.

[Tanselman]

Did you forget to photograph the tang, or would that have given it away?

Shelby Gallien

[Dennis Glazener]

Did you forget to photograph the tang, or would that have given it away?

Shelby Gallien

Forgot to photograph it, will do later this AM.
Dennis

[Hlbly]

T. Neave is related to me. Here is one by an earlier ancestor.

[Dennis Glazener]

Sorry, left for church and forgot the tang photo!

[Dennis Glazener]

T. Neave is related to me. Here is one by an earlier ancestor.

Gerald
I started to ask if you were related but didn't because of the missing "s" but family names were spelled different ways in the same families.. that's an early lock, assume they built them here in America early on?
Dennis

[Hlbly]

Somehow an S got added when my 4th and 5th great grandfathers moved from Maryland to NC in 1794. The 1759 gun was ordered for the Hudson Bay Company. The order is documented in the Pennsylvania State archives. BTW, our name is still spelled Neave in Scotland.

[Tanselman]

Well, with a "Cincinnati" marked lock plate, the gun has at least two details from along the Ohio River. The guard style, with its nice oval bow and "square shoulder" on the rear spur where it runs up to meet the guard's rear extension, is most often found near the Ohio River and often seen on Kentucky guns. The very straight comb and toe line is often a southern trait, as is the longer two-screw tang, usually from below the Ohio River, but found on some Ohio guns and elsewhere at times. But the very short forestock, oversized inlay at the barrel wedge, and short cast nose cap don't appear to be from Kentucky. First guess is Ohio. I might add, 1) the gun looks too crisp and lean to be from southern Indiana, and 2) some Missouri guns look a little like this, especially with the straight butt lines and sharp nose on the comb. So where is it really from?

Shelby Gallien

[Daryl]

I don't know much about the wheres and whiles, but first spotting of this gun in the pictures, spoke Ohio to me.
Seems to me I've seen some pictures of original Ohio guns that looked a LOT like this one.

[Dennis Glazener]

How about a build date, I assume it is a late 1800's rifle, just wonder how late, 1860's, 70's, maybe later? I will explain why I am interested in date built later.
Dennis

[Tanselman]

Dating is always somewhat subjective on these rather plain half-stocked rifles, since different areas moved at different paces toward new styles: in general, the farther east, the faster change occurred. If made near the Ohio River, some styles changed more rapidly due to the river traffic bringing/introducing the latest eastern trends downriver.

The lock has an oval, rather than later round, rear end, and the guard has retained a graceful style before going to the clunkier late guards with flat backs on bows, more rectangular bow openings, less attractive double rear spurs, etc. My only small concern with this rifle is the forestock wedge and oversized wedge inlays, both of which look almost "modern" on this gun, especially with the large square head on the brass wedge and large nails used on inlays.

The large caliber is a little misleading for dating purposes on this rifle, when the butt has only moderate height and barrel length is moderate as well but looks OK based on the pipe spacings. I think this rifle is pre-Civil War, while older style trends were still in vogue, probably made in the mid-to-late 1850s, possibly early 1860s.

Shelby Gallien

[LynnC]

Reading with great interest. The straight sharp comb line says Tenn to me but what do I know. Substitute Iron for brass and I'd guess made in Tenn……waiting 😉

[Dennis Glazener]

This is a very heavy rifle not one O would want to hunt with. Seeing where it once had some type of tang sight I would assume it was primarily a target rifle.

Thanks for your input Shelby by your fairly rely date has put a a kink in my thought on the maker. Will wait to hear 1 or two thoughts on dates and area for original build and then a how signature and some what else I know about the rifle. Probably late today.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

Sorry meant to add this last night and forgot. He rifle is signed G. Gillespie which in the past I had strong family information that a signed G. Gillespie rifle was made by George Washington Gillespie who was a cobbler by trade but built a number of rifles. His father was James Gillespie one of 5 of Mathew Gillespie's gunmaker sons. James and brother John moved to Union County GA in 1849. I recently found the birthdate of his son George Washington Gillespie whom I thought built this rifle but George was not born 1858 which is way late to have built this rifle and most likely the other G. Gillespie signed rifles I have seen. So I am trying to figure out which Gillespie this is and where he lived.

I am familiar with a couple of other half-stock rifles signed R. B. Gillespie one of which has the same type escutcheons this rifle has and if I remember right it has very similar muzzle decorations. This Gillespie maker resided in Maiden Springs, Tazewell County VA. But I am not aware of any G. Gillespie in that area. So right now I am stumped about who this G. Gillespie is. Since many of you mentioned Ohio I think I will see what Gillespies I can turn-up in that area, if any. Then there is the choir of proving this rifle came from that area and was made by one of the Gillespies in that area.

Here is the photo of the signature :









I have another R. B. Gillespie signed full stock rifle but it is plain and looks nothing like the 2 half stock I posted.
Dennis

[Tanselman]

Dennis,

This gunsmith is probably George Gillespie, b. 1823 in Aberdeen, Indiana to parents Robert and Margaret Gillespie. George was working in 1860 at Rising Sun in Ohio County, Indiana [Indiana's smallest county], in deep southeastern Indiana near the Ohio River and close to Cincinatti, but not quite on the river. He was listed as a "boatman" in 1860 census and "gunsmith" in 1870. He also had two gunsmithing brothers, James Gillespie and Robert Bruce Gillespie [note the "B" middle initial]. This man fits the timeframe, the right location for the style and "Cincinnati" lock, has a gunsmith brother with the two first initials of "R.B.," and is probably your man. Jeff Jaeger of Indiana, who did the recent "Indiana Gunmakers" book, may be able to tell you more about them. Perhaps Jeff has seen their work, but he did not illustrate a Gillespie rifle in his book... and I have never seen [knowingly, at least] one of their rifles.

Post Script: Jerry Noble's compendium, "Gun Trade in America," has a listing for "Old George Gillespie" that states George was from Aberdeen, IN, and later Arcola, IL. "Signed [his guns] 'G. Gillespie' in script."

I checked the "Find a Grave" web site. There was supporting information on George's Indiana birth and Illinois death. He married Mary Ann Boyle on Sept. 4, 1850, in Ohio County, Indiana. She died and was buried there on Feb. 20, 1885, so Gillespie didn't leave Indiana until after 1885. He moved with their four grown children to Arcola in Douglas Co., Illinois, where all are recorded, and all but one died and were buried.

I checked Curt Johnson's "Illinois Gunmakers" book, and he had no Gillespie gunmaker listed... perhaps George retired from gunmaking by the time he moved to Illinois.

Shelby Gallien

[Dennis Glazener]

Shelby,
I am sorry that I never replied to you about the information you posted above. I was and still am have a lot of medical problems and just failed to respond.

I want to follow up on the info provided and will hopefully have time to do that shortly. I would very much like to know more about the George Gillespie you gave in on. I believe their may have been at least 3 different George Gillespie gun makers!

Thanks again for the information,
Denis