Author Topic: Collier second model flint pistol  (Read 1603 times)

Offline axelp

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Collier second model flint pistol
« on: February 25, 2024, 06:09:07 PM »
Wouldn't it be cool if some skilled engineer and CNC operator could make reproductions of these. Since it is CNC, I would figure that the repro could have even tighter tolerances (-.002")?? The second model is a simpler mechanism, but still an incredible combination of handwork and machining for the 1820s. I just watched a ytvideo of a disassembly and explanation of the gun and it was fun to watch and learn things about this fascinating gun. Always admired this gun, as Collier did not miss much in the making of this.

K
Galations 2:20

Offline Robby

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2024, 06:55:44 PM »
I am assuming there is a picture between the text and the K. Like a lot of strings it does not show up for me and no one seems to be able to correct it.
Robby

*I checked and no photo link there.
Dennis*
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 12:45:19 PM by Dennis Glazener »
molon labe
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2024, 08:25:57 PM »
I'm not seeing a picture, either, Robby.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2024, 01:15:20 AM »
Is this what he is discussing?


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Offline Daryl

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2024, 03:28:04 AM »
Now THAT'S cool!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2024, 05:57:05 PM »
That'll be the one, Clark!

Offline axelp

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2024, 02:59:57 AM »
I did not post a picture. But there is some great show and tell videos on You tube. Even a complete take down and discussion on how it operated. The second model was designed simpler and aimed for a commercial market. As I watched the video I thought of the CNC guys here...

Ken
Galations 2:20

Offline Daryl

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2024, 04:12:09 AM »
A larger picture, I hope.
Click twice.



 
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2024, 07:23:12 AM »
I see the steel, (frizszen) has its own powder magazine so as to not need priming for each shot.
A lot of these blew off in time.

Offline axelp

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2024, 06:13:36 PM »
It was obviously important that the tolerances between the collar and the cylinder had to be quite tight so as to protect against chain firing and these guns had respectable tolerances of .002."

The cylinder had a ribbon spring that pushed the chambers against and over the protruding breech end of the barrel that created a near perfect gas seal. There was a square pin that locked the cylinder in position when cocked. The cylinder was pulled back and rotated by hand then the spring would push it back into the locked position as the chamber was aligned with the barrel. The cowling fit tightly over the exposed chambers, again protecting it against chain fire.

The frizzen does indeed have a reservoir for priming powder and a simple toggle and rotating measure that only dispenses the right amount of prime each time and closes both when in the firing position and when it is in the fired position. Seems like Collier did everything right with this gun. Not to say chain fires or frizzen reservoirs never ignited, Might be why there are only a few of these left in existence.

I always assumed this gun was extremely complicated, but the video showed an amazingly simple design and I wonder if the gun were recreated by CNC technology and the tolerances were even better how it would fair? What a cool gun. I think there are only like 10-12 of these in existence today? There is no record how many were made-- estimates are in the 250 range. Collier was an accomplished engineer that worked on many things other that guns, and he seems to have lost interest in the gun business. If he had kept going, who knows how far this would have gone? He also had long-gun versions.

In the first model that he submitted for military trials, the prototypes had a more complex wind up spring system that turned the cylinder automatically when the gun was cocked,  but it was discarded in the simpler second model that was made for the commercial market. There is a later third model that was a percussion cap ignition. Very cool Mr. Collier!
Galations 2:20

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2024, 06:40:40 PM »
With all the mention of CNC machining/production, could this be in Jim Kibler's future plans?

I, for one, would be one of the first customers!  Jim, what say ye?  Possible?  Probable?

I love my Woodsrunner, and do plan to order the other two rifle kits in the near future.  And will look forward to his smoothbore!
Craig Wilcox
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Offline axelp

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2024, 07:11:49 PM »
I think a repro Collier would be super cool but it might not fit into Jims business plan.

These would be expensive guns to reproduce, a high dollar luxury item. As such, the market would be considerably slimmer than his current offerings. But for the art and engineering--and the love of it?... Dang....

I would be hard pressed not to sell a kidney for one of these.

K
Galations 2:20

Offline axelp

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2024, 07:17:50 PM »
For giggles, I checked online and the originals are going in auctions to the tune of $65,000 or so.

K
Galations 2:20

Offline Tenmile

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2024, 04:03:53 AM »
This gun was the trademark of Jackson Arms in Dallas, 1951-1993, an iconic shop dealing in the finest antique arms. I still have one of their catalogs, 1960 I think, with a picture of it at the top of the front cover. They had a large model of the pistol above the front door of their shop on Hillcrest Avenue. I frequented the business from 1959 till they closed and saw many guns but never saw this one.
Lynn

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2024, 10:51:04 PM »
Advertise it as used at the OK Corral ;D ;D.

Bob Roller

Offline 44-henry

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2024, 04:16:51 AM »
Neat, but probably a huge legal liability for anyone brave enough to produce and sell it. Here is another neat one.

https://youtu.be/J_hnC6x036Q?si=eMnKnKSQ3txy51L7

Offline Daryl

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2024, 10:45:49 AM »
THAT was amazing!!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline axelp

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2024, 03:51:29 AM »
I almost wrote "nifty."

 8)
Galations 2:20

Offline Frank Graves

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2024, 06:20:49 PM »
Here is another Collier Flintlock revolver, this one #89 that I own.  Only about 90 Second Model pistols were made and about 24 still exist today.  Patented in 1818 and produced in the early 1820s, some 15 years prior to Samuel Colt's Paterson revolvers.  The quality that they show is astounding especially considering what machinery and techniques were available then.  These revolvers were undoubtedly seen by Samuel Colt and are the true first production revolvers.  New book on these coming out any day now.





Offline Daryl

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2024, 08:00:36 PM »
Seems to me, there were revolving cylinder flintlock guns in Europe before this, perhaps in the late 1700's? There is a picture of one in "One Hundred Guns" hardcover book.
Just looked for the book - can't find it.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Frank Graves

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2024, 08:22:35 PM »
There were revolving guns as early as 1597, this one in Germany as an example. 

Probably others earlier than that too but Collier's distinction is that there was "mass" production of his.  For all of the models of Colliers, pistols and long guns, the total was about 225.







Offline Scota4570

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2024, 02:18:45 AM »
Here is a discussion of reproductions firearms.


Offline Daryl

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2024, 04:09:18 AM »
YIKES! ;)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Collier second model flint pistol
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2024, 07:16:04 PM »
I like this idea better. Except for for slow match in the hair thing.


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