shooting harder than soft lead roundballs

[axelp]

Does anyone have experience shooting a harder projectile than soft lead? I know some shoot wheel weight lead which is harder, out of smoothbores... But if a thick patch was used, wouldnt it be ok to shoot harder stuff out of a rifle?

I am looking for actual experience, not just opinion.

thanks

Ken

[RonT]

I shot a ~130# 8 pt. Ohio Whitetail this season with a .441 dental lead ball.  Got penetration to the opposite side where the flattened* ball was found against the skin.  Don't have any experiance with WW, but would use if was only source just to keep shooting.
There was discussion elsewhere that speculated that dental lead is harder than "soft" lead.   Other discussion on different grades of WW lead.

R
* ball was flattened to ~1/8" thick x 5/8" dia.

[roundball]

Does anyone have experience shooting a harder projectile than soft lead? I know some shoot wheel weight lead which is harder, out of smoothbores... But if a thick patch was used, wouldnt it be ok to shoot harder stuff out of a rifle?

I am looking for actual experience, not just opinion.

Actual experience:
I've shot 500-600 solid hard glass 9/16" marbles out of my .58 and .62cals...there is zero 'give' in them and no problem at all

[Daryl]

I used WW balls in the 134 bore rifle, which back then, ran Brinel 12 to 13 - pure lead is brinel 5.  'd load a patched pure lead ball for the first shot, then WW balls in paper ctgs. for any sucessive shots when hunting moose.  After travelling through about 30 yards of willows (bush) and then hitting a moose, the balls were very slightly flattened, showing marks from the willow branches, but none from the moose itself.

To be able to shoot WW balls in this rifle with heavy charges and a cloth patch, I purchased a 15 bore mould at .677" for the gun's .690" bore.  They are quite easy to load and shoot quite well with a .030" denim patch. (not 2 finger loading, of course)  This patch runs .025" with the michrometer. I have also used a doubled .017" patch with good results, collecting all the patches, re-lubing them and using them for the trail walk we shot on the next weekend - no loss in accuracy.

[axelp]

ok-- so with a thicker patch, a harder than lead roundball "can" be a suitable projectile--even preferable projectile in some cases. So lets say my rifle prefers a .490 softlead ball, with a .020 patch, What would be your estimate as far as diameter (if you had that option) for a harder than lead roundball? .485/.025? .480/.030? This is all conjecture, and personal experience with the rifle itself would be the final decider.

A smoothbore would shoot a harder ball with less concern for reduced performance?

Ken

[Daryl]

It's easy to shoot hard lead in a smoothbore, many guys shoot nothing but wheel weights in them. With rifles, the deeper the rifling, the more difficult it is to find a patch that will allow loading, yet not burn out.  As the hard lead won't engrave easily ou are restricted to how tight the load can be. Couple that with producing higher pressures with the smaller the bore you go with the increased demand for a tighter combination, you approach a viscious circle.

With a .50, to me, a .010" under ball is small & I would try that first, with a .020" to .022" patch.  Since normal rifling is around .012" deep in .50, to .016" in a Rice or Getz round bottomed barrrel for example, a combination needs to be snug indeed.

The muzzle's crown is usually the culprit in cutting patches uponloading with harder than pure balls. It must be smoothly rounded.

I have some WW balls cast up for my .45 at .433" and thought I might get away with a .030" patch, but haven't tried them yet.

In the .50, that thickest of denim patch might even work with a .485" or .480".  I believe it's 12 oz. denim, but might be 14oz.

One needs to experiment - as always.

[axelp]

I wonder if a thin greased leather patch would work better with a harder than lead roundball when shooting it out of a rifle?

Ken

[Daryl]

Ken - the ball would have to be very small to allow even a thin leather patch.  Denim shoots fine with hard balls - one merely needs to find which thickness and ball diameter works best for him.

[Lloyd]

Ken,
See my comment on the Moose shooting thread..

Bob and I after that escapade ordered a .480 round ball mold from Rapine.

I have shot a bunch of .480 round balls cast out of wheel weights using a thick pillow ticking (23 thou) patch.  I have tried other patching materiel, but it seems to be too loose of a weave and I have blow-outs.  I am using around 80 grains of FFg for a normal load.

I think, for deer hunting, I still prefer a soft lead .490 round ball though.  The bigger the ball and the more mushrooming I can get, the better I like it.  It all increases the blood channel.   

I may be thinking all wrong, but I have come to the conclusion that a round ball kills the same way an arrow does...  By cutting a blood channel.

Most modern rifles tend to kill with shock.  (Have you ever looked at the hydraulic shock trail that a .22-250 makes in a gelatin block?) Well, it does the same thing to a ground squirrel...  He explodes.....

A muzzleloader on the other hand, just punches a little round hole through a ground squirrel.  Same thing happens to a deer...  Therefore, I believe that the bigger I can get that hole, the more shock, blood loss and trauma the animal is going to instantly have. 

Of course, you have to measure the penetration along with this....  I have known several folks who have shot animals and the ball never penetrated the hide of an animal.  It was still in a hide pocket shoved down inside the body cavity of the animal...

I also shot and lost a nice buck by hitting a front shoulder bone which stopped a .45 round ball...  Then again, I once shot a mule deer in the side and kicked up dirt behind him before he fell over dead... 

I think one needs to think about all of these things before you make a decision concerning what round ball you are going to shoot.

Now, Paper Don't Care......  Neither do Beer Cans.....

[northmn]

I have killed a few deer with arrows.  They kill through a cutting action that no blunt firearm projectile will produce.  There  is little or no bruising around the wound and an arrow needs to hit something that a cut will make bleed.  Many deer have survived muscle hits and a few have not.  A hit to the ham with an arrow, if it hits the femoral artery will be fatal and no damage a lot of meat as compared to a bullet. You cannot get a broadhead sharp enough.  The hydrostatic shot of a high power was exploited in the German Mauser 8X57 when they developed the 150 grain spitzer bullet (the term spitzer came from the German development)  At that time both the American and British had failures with heavy 30 cal bullets at 2100 fps.  I have shot jack rabbits with a 222 and FMJ that blew an impressive hole when driven at 3000.  FMJ have to be kept under 2500 to 2700 fps to eliminate that problem on furbearers.  The roundball kills the same as the other bullets in that category like pistol loads and older BPC rifles. When I used to hunt varmints with handguns I noticed that big bores like the 44's and 45's did the job in a real business like way.  They may not have blown the hole that a hp 357 would, but the critters just fell over and lay there.  Revolver hunters have developed very hardcast loads that do not expand to ensure penetration on large game, somewhat like the hardened roundball and depend on bore diameter to do its job.  People like to blow very large holes in deer, but I have found they mostly help in blood trails, that deer go about the same distance regardless of what they are shot with.  One thing I noticed after an old timer mentioned it to me, is that lung shot deer like to go to cover before they drop especially if they are out in the open.  If the cover is 25 yards away you find them close to the edge, if 100 yards they may make it that far.  The most amazing run I ever saw was an old grey muzzled doe I shot at about 150 yards with a 270.  She must have run about 200 yard zig zagging off the field, across a road and into the brush.  Her insides were jelly, typical of a 130 grain hit from a 270 and one could not believe that a deer held that much blood.  I Had a jackrabbit run 80 paces after a hit from a 222 with almost no ribcage left on the other side.  The tenacity of wild animals can be very amazing.

DP 

[hanshi]

Just goes to show that being dead is not enough; you have to KNOW you're dead, too.