Author Topic: Barrel wall thickness  (Read 2683 times)

Offline Hudnut

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2024, 07:15:52 PM »
Basically you do what you are comfortable with.  If you are doing work for someone else, it gets serious.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2024, 07:18:22 PM »
I just made a sight for a respected kit maker's barrel.  The dovetail was about 0.032" deep.  I currently own may of his rifles, not a single sight has ever moved.  1/32" appears to be plenty deep to do the job. 


Offline WKevinD

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2024, 02:03:56 AM »
A few years ago I built a rifle with a rice "southern classic" barrel in .50 caliber when I inlet my center underlug I was careful, I don't know the decimal depth (I used 4 strokes with the hacksaw) all was good until I used the cold chisel to raise the lips of the dovetail.
Yup I dented the inside of the barrel! I then silver soldered the underlug in place.
I finished the gun couldn't sell it with the discernable tick while loading or cleaning so adopted it as "my gun".
I've killed a number of deer and woodchucks with it and this Wed shot the 130 yard 12"gong at the local club with it and the 8" 75 yard gong. 
I screwed up but it still works well and I'm not worried about mid barrel blow outs.

Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2024, 07:31:51 PM »
I have a booklet here somewhere called "The Destructive Proof Testing Of M-L barrels" by a man named Cunningham, I think. He was manufacturing barrels at the time, can't remember the Company. He went to great lengths to try and destroy a bunch oof M-L barrels. These were the "dangerous" 12L14 barrels. He did some insane things to them, super, super, overloads , double and triple balls, multiple balls., placing multipole balls spaced apart. cutting deep dove tails, grooves and such and he had one heck of a time getting these barrels to fail even with those insane loads. ...Lk
Cunningham was a barrel maker that made 12L14 barrels what would expect him to write? Not a metallurgist or even a steel maker. Jim Kelly (a metallurgist and ML shooter) wrote articles on barrel steels in the old Buckskin Report magazine and Cunningham wrote rebuttals. Yes any modern steel will, in theory generally, withstand BP pressures, especially if you believe the “tenisile” numbers for some of the cold rolled steels. BUT these numbers are irrelevant when the steel is SHOCK LOADED, or is used to contain INTERNAL PRESSURE. And firearms barrels are subjected to both.  Combine this with the internal FLAWS that are endemic to cold rolled free machining steels and you have a barrel that is not safe shock loading alone, according the Jim Kelly, reduces 12L14 tensile to almost nothing . If the steel maker that MAKES these steels, 12L14  IIRC was called “fatigue proof”, by LaSalle steel, states IN PRINT that it should not be used for gun barrels what is one to think?
Here is an example sorry its in reverse order.






LaSalle Steel got into the discussion too….




So if you have a collection of “The Buckskin Report” from 1981-1982 maybe even 1983, you should have most if not all of the articles.
There are photos and text of blown MLs in various issues.
People like to believe the makers of 12L14 barrels and the reference to Cunningham is laughable. You can get a 20 ft bar of 12L14 and make 5-6 barrels from it and ALL may be without failure OR you might have one that will fail for no apparent reason in the first few firings or after years of use. And as I stated again the victim in a ML barrel failure cannot prove that it was correctly loaded. This is how they get by in using a substandard stee.
The other reason. Better grade steels, like gun barrel quality, have to be bought in furnace melt quantities and few ML barrel makers can afford this. To get it requires them to pool orders to get the tonnage up. THEN its a LOT harder to machine, being a hot rolled alloy not crowded with contaminants to make it free machining, cuts are done slower, tool wear is greater and its a LOT harder to cut rifle smoothly as well and it may be necessary to incorporate a lapping operation to bring them to an acceptable finish. Especially the 4140-4150 alloys. And this jumps up the price. Since the alloy is a lot more expensive, it wears the tooling more and is a lot harder to ream smoothly and cut smooth grooves in. A barrel maker I used to buy BRCR barrels from got a military contract for 50 BMG barrels. He told me that if inspectors came into his plant and found ONE bar of steel of an alloy not specified in the contract the contract was instantly voild and not payments for work done paid. Green Mountain got a contract for M4 or M16 barrels years ago and stopped making ML barrels from 1137 as a result at least until the contact was fulfilled. The Remington fiasco with 1144(M for “modified’) shotgun barrels. Cost them a LOT when the WORK HARDENING steel work hardened, became brittle, burst and people were hurt. Shotgun barrels tend to flex when fired, thin walls ect. And while it is way stronger than needed for shotguns if it gets word hardened and becomes brittle it can fail and it did in a number or cases, shooters were maimed  There is WAY, WAY more to this than most people think or want to believe. Including RECALLS of firearms.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2024, 08:40:51 PM »
Back in the early 80's, I built a Hawken rifle for a friend around a 1" x 36" x .54cal. GRRW barrel.  During a fast and furious stake cut match, my friend loaded two charges in his rifle, but the second ball hydralic'd back up the bore a few inches, over the first charge.  The result was a catastrophic barrel burst which started at the breech plug and ran up the barrel past the first barrel tenon and the rear sight dovetail.  The percussion hammer was never found and the lock plate was bent into a significant curve.  The barrel opened up like a banana into three pieces.
All this diagnosis was determined after the incident, of course.  No one was injured but it put an end to the shooting that day...everyone was in shock.
This is just an example of what can happen if a shooter is not paying 100% attention to what he is doing.  And this was on a rifle that had no issues such as deep dovetails, or improperly breeched barrel.
So if you build a rifle around a barrel that you suspect has an issue that might end up in a failure, you are playing with some serious stuff.





D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2024, 09:51:18 PM »
That is the definition of one of my sarcastic remarks about a "shoulder fired pipe bomb".GRRW is kaput but does anyone know what that barrel was made from? Maybe "Unknownium".The miracle of no injuries WAS a miracle.The old hack about not blowing up with black powder was laid to rest.My maternal grandfather told me of a man who would today be called "challenged"was talked into firing a grossly overloaded and low quality shotgun, and the plug blew out and killed him.Nobody was made to answer for that These was a similar blow up at Friendship when a stuck ball was blown out of a barrel and that barrel burst with bad powder burns.I don't know if it was a new barrel or an antique.Black powder is NOT a feeble propellant and the Civil War was fought using it and the buffalo herds were almost killed off to the point of becoming extinct with it.Messy,yes,feeble,NO WAY!!
Bob Roller

Offline Daryl

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2024, 02:30:59 AM »
My .69 has a GRRW barrel on it and has to be close to 7 or 8 thousand shots through it. Its non- knowatanium barrel is doing just fine but the ball is ALWAYS on the powder with slight compression  not just placed onto it, as I have witnessed many people load.
The BP ctg. Folks ALWAYS have slight compression on the powder for better ignition and burning qualities of tje powder charge. This makes sense to me  so I load my muzzleloaders with "slight" compression as well. When I see other shooters chronographed large shot to shot variations, I chock it up to absolutely no compression of the powder. If there is no compression, then it is also possible that the ball is not down hard on the powder. That cannot be good.
 
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2024, 09:35:46 PM »
One simple test can be done IF that barrel is still around. Saw of a short piece and heat it bright orange and drop it in oil or water.
After it cools,get it and if a file won't cut it it is possibly 1144,"Stressproof" and Bill Large used a lot of it and 99% of the tumblers in my locks are made from it but tumblers don't explode.12L14 will not harden and 1137 I know nothing about The "Certified for gun barrels"
as used by Jim McLemore isn't likely to split even in light barrels and as mentioned,he wasn't worried about an injured shooter and a lawyer because the barrel he made from certified gun barrel steels.Another thing to look at is cast bolster breech plugs.The Hawken Shop when Art Resell had it in St.Louis had the breech plugs Xrayed and culled them by inspection using Xray.Don Brown asked me about this when he made the Alex Henry copies and I told him those rifles do not cater to a distressed market and having the plugs Xrayed and inspected wouls would be a great idea because the 451's with a 500 grain bullet ran up much higher pressures.I am no longer in the loop on this but for whatever reasons,muzzle loaders seemed to be a low end thing even when finely crafted when components were being bought.
Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2024, 11:30:26 PM »
Pretty sure GRRW barrels were made of 12L14. They draw file like that’s what they are made of.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Barrel wall thickness
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2024, 05:12:57 AM »
Many moons ago my dad dropped an M1 Garand off a tractor and shot at a coyote with dirt in the bore about 3” back from the muzzle. Did not burst just bulged. The alloy is the one still used for small arms in the US military. 4150. Maybe 41v50. The vanadium gives increased wear resistance . I can assure you that barrels of this alloy can and are shot when red hot. Be it an M16/M60 or a 50  BMG. Yeah modern but this is where the data is. And 4150 is what Jim McLemore told me he used. Its not going to fragment .  UNLESS there is an event caused invariably by an UNDERLOAD of grey powder.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine