Schuetzen .45

[holzwurm]

Can anyone help me ID and date this Schuetzen? On the back-action lock, engraved in gold is the name "F Jeannet au Locle". I have an idea that it is French because of the "au". There are a couple of rough spots, a patch along the belly of the stock under the butt plate looks prefesionally done, its missing a ram rod and the palm rest and some gunk (?) under the top tail of the BP. It has an interesting wing bolt on the left side through the side plate holding the lock in place and a horn nose cap. The link below will take you to my photobox which has a series of pictures. Let me know if you need more.





[


I'd be interested in opinions about the value of professional restoration or just leave it alone?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

We cannot see you pictures in photobucket without a password...or you can make them public...........

[holzwurm]

pictures should be seen now.

[T*O*F]

Le Locle is in Switzerland, just across the border from France and a little NE of Lyon.

You gotta be joking about restoring it.....it looks almost mint condition and that is probably gold inlaid into the lockplate.

[holzwurm]

Here are a couple more pic's



 

Is this some kind of liner that has been inserted?







any suggestions on finding out info about this? Age

[DaveVH]

There is a similar rifle posted on Halp's site of Single Shots. Maybe this will help.

http://www.pbase.com/halp/dragon_gun

[Dphariss]

You gotta be joking about restoring it.....it looks almost mint condition and that is probably gold inlaid into the lockplate.

Like he said.
Leave it alone.

"Restoring" old guns in good condition should be punishable by flogging.
They need to be preserved as is.

Dan

[holzwurm]

There is a similar rifle posted on Halp's site of Single Shots. Maybe this will help.

http://www.pbase.com/halp/dragon_gun

That site is not available for soem reason.

 OK - I got the message about restoration.

 In another direction however, if you take a look at the breech design




with that flat filed into the side of the breech plug, it looks like the very same hand did the work on this Jacob rifle belonging to Lord Kelvin in the Hunterian Museum in Galsgow.



I havenn't been able to get a photo of the lock side of this Jacob rifle made by George Daw (London) from the Glasgow Museum but I'm thinking it is very similar to the lock in this rifle. From what I can remember loooking over the top of the rifle at the hammer snail that piece that extends forward from the snail is very similar.

Interestingly, there exists a digital brochure on Google of a rifle match held in September of 1870 in which several "Switzerland rifles" were awarded to shooters.

I'm not suggesting any relationships here - just commenting on the similarity

[DaveVH]

I had no trouble using the link I sent but you might try the long way!

www.pbase.com

In the search area type: halp

I believe the rifle is on page 4 under the heading of: Mythical Creatures as Decorations

Good Luck

[holzwurm]

Thanks Dave. That is an interesting site. Do you own all those? I did discover how a part of my rifle worked looking at the George Schoyen Muzzle Loading Rifle. I saw how the palm rest attached to the underside. I was wondering what that small lug was for? Mine is behind the plam rest threaded hole. It's part of the palm rest adjustment mechanism.

 

[DaveVH]

Sorry! I wish I did own them but I am lucky enough to own a few on that site. One in particular is the Swiss rifle in question. I also have the same adjustment screw behind the palm rest hole and I am in the process of making a palm rest.

 I was wondering about the the odd wing bolt on the side plate. Is it possible that it was used as a thumb rest?

Dave

[Acer Saccharum]

I am going to guess it's about 1860-70.
The muzzle has been crowned several times, bored back rather than the end of the bbl cut off. Unless that's to fit a pre-cut patch, which is not likely. This is probably a pickett or a slug twist bbl.

That rebated breech looks like a common design to retain some wood strength back in the breech area.

Tom Rowe published a book on the American Schuetzen rifle some years ago.

[holzwurm]

I was wondering about the the odd wing bolt on the side plate. Is it possible that it was used as a thumb rest?
Dave

It is positioned on the front of the side plate & too far forward to be a thumb rest. It goes through the stock and screws through the lock plate.


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The trigger guard also had a thumb screw behind the trigger holding the guard on. The front of the guard has a hook engaging the trigger plate. It looks like a small example of the hook holding the barrel to the breech tang. I can't think of any reason to make the trigger guard removable unless it's so a diferent shapped guard could be attached for larger fingers or when wearing gloves

[JTR]

If the wingnut is the only thing holding the lock in place, I'd guess it is to easily remove the lock for cleaning.
No clue on the removable trigger guard other than what you surmise.

Nice gun!
I don't see the areas you asked about regarding restoration other than the wood by the butt plate. That little bit could certainly be fixed up if you could find a good match to the wood.
I'll bet that ol banger would be fun to shoot!
John

[Acer Saccharum]

Most of the schuetzen guards are removable for trigger cleaning and adjustment. These guys took their shooting very seriously.

[holzwurm]

Most of the schuetzen guards are removable for trigger cleaning and adjustment. These guys took their shooting very seriously.

The wood at the top of the stock under the tang is the only flaw other than the missing items. Also, the screws holding on the butt plate look pretty marked up as if someone had used the wrong size turn screw to remove/replace them. They also don't fit the plate nicely like the rest of the gun fits together.

I'm looking in to making a palm rest if I can locate some king of plan

[Curt J]

Great rifle! I guessed it to be of Swiss origin too, simply because of the "au" in the signature. I have a heavy percussion schuetzen made in Highland, Illinois, by a Swiss born gunsmith named Dominick Wiget. It is signed in script: "D. Wiget au Highland Ill". I believe that Tom Rowe also did a book on European Schuetzen rifles, or was at least working on one. His book on American Percussion Schuetzen Rifles is superb! I have never seen better photos in a gun book.

I have a dozen or so percussion schuetzens, all American made (all Upper Mississippi Valley, actually). Hinged trigger guards with thumbscrews, for quick removal of the trigger assembly, are pretty much the rule, rather than the exception.

[doug]

      I have two swiss rifles and both have removable trigger guards.  It is to allow adjusting the trigger and the trigger assembly is not designed for quick removal.

cheers Doug

[holzwurm]

I recieved this very informative reply from the community museum in Le Locle Switzerland this morning about the Schuetzen.  I made a point of commenting that since I didn't speak a word of Swiss it was unnecessary for her to appologize about her English 

Dear Sir,

The historical museum of Le Locle also own a gun made (and signed)  by F. Jeannet Le Locle. I send you a photography.

Frédéric Jeannet was gunsmith. Son of Charles-Louis, he was born the 29th decembrer 1783 or 1793 (the documents don't agree).
In the years 1850, he came to Le Locle from Les Ponts (a village near Le Locle). His family came from Les Ponts.
The 11th november 1859, he left Le Locle to go to the town of La Chaux-de-Fonds.
The gun was indeed made ca 1850.

I keep your adress and will give you more informations, if I can find.

I apologize for my bad English

Sincerely yours

Caroline Calame

   

[The other DWS]

the muzzle appears to be rebated for the insert style plunger-type bullet-starter used on schuetzen rifles.  there were also versions used in conjunction with false muzzles that fit over the outside of the barrel. they were developed to enable the picket or sugar loaf style bullets to be loaded with out tipping.  typically the end of the plunger rod was machined out to cup the nose of the bullet to keep it in alignment.

 the Rowe book  American Percussion Schuetzen Rifles  (I got mine from Track of the Wolf) shows a number of photos of various starters, palm rests and other accoutrements buried among the incredible high art photos of some of the finest examples of the American made percussion schuetzen rifles.  There is serious speculation that whole rifles, as well as some components components were imported and sold (or assembled) by american gunsmiths, most of whom were of german-swiss origin or descent

[dbeeksci]

I have three similar rifles signed and identified as Swiss made. These are large heavy schuetzens similar to this one. Regarding the removal of the trigger set and the lock, as noted by an earlier post, these shooters took great care of their rifles, made finite adjustments to both lock and triggers, and probably cleaned the rifles, in full, after each match. This is a beauty....I would not attempt any restoration at all.

[Curt J]

Welcome aboard Dale!