Are we loosing our builders to Kit rifles

[Jdw276]

Yes we are losing builders.  Those builders who will build a rifle for you in the evenings after working their day job.  They build a quality piece for a Price that they do not have to have to live on.

For those of us with two right thumbs who might want to try and build one but lack the skills with current lh offerings,  these builders would do it for you at a reasonable price.  We have lost their teaching time as well.  I call them hobby builders who make a high quality product.  They are not free.

[AZshot]

I enjoyed assembling, touching up the few parts for perfect fit, and most of all finishing the metal and wood.  I did a SMR, and there were parts that would not fit if you didn't do some chiseling, like the buttplate and the ramrod entry pipe.  Both took me several hours over several days to get just right.  Then I decided to add a toeplate, cutting one out of an old antique tool.  Worked on filing that down and fitting for several hours over several days, again to try to get it just right. 

Yes, you are basically buying a rifle that needs some fine tuning on the assembly, then finishing.  Like the plastic ship and plane and tank models people built when I was young, you could tell one that someone slapped together.  Parts with large gaps, glue everywhere, things out of line, ....shoddy work can be done by anyone in a hurry.  I went slow and enjoyed the process and again, that is mostly in the finishing.  The most fun part of wood work to me.

There seems to be a couple of people who refuse to think this type of purchase is worthy.  Their attitude smells of snooty elitism and "I'm better than you because I do something you can't."  Well, every one of us is good at some things, and bad at some things.  I'm sure I'm better at a lot of things (like systems engineering, training fighter pilots, etc), more than spending years learning to build a rifle from a plank of wood, casting or forging my own parts, and using only 150 year old chisels and no sandpaper.  Cronies in many hobbies (sorry, this is not a lifestyle for me) drive out newbies with their arrogance and looking down their noses at anything different.  THAT is why so many hobbies have died on the vine the past 30 years.  It saddens me, because I too remember the Buckskinner days of the 70s. 

[Daryl]

I think for every one lost, 2 or 3 might be gained, over time, but then, these kits are wonderfully made and designed kits.
3 of the 4 and a person has his or her battery in only 3 guns, oft times less expensive than a single rifle from a well known builder.

[Seth Isaacson]

Everyone I personally know that has a Kibler has then wanted more guns, more custom gear, etc. They definitely give people the urge to get more muzzleloaders, both Jim's other kits as well as custom made guns. Most "gun guys" aren't going to have just one or two guns. They like guns, so they buy more guns that they like. Often it progresses to more and more expensive guns as they get deeper into it and get more means to afford better, custom pieces. Kibler lets people get started with a quality gun that isn't going to turn them away in frustration unlike many other flintlocks of old. Their offerings are great for our hobby, and they've been finding their way into tv series like Outlander making our popular culture representations of muzzleloading more accurate too which can also lead to more interest in muzzleloaders.

The one thing that I see that limits people's interest is that powder and other supplies are difficult to buy locally, and there aren't very many active clubs that can be readily joined. I've been building my own "club" by pulling as many of my shooting buddies over to the "dark side" as I can. They all know I intend to convince them all to have at least one longrifle. One of them has built two Kiblers. Another built one Kibler. Someone else bought a used Browning "Mountain Rifle" but sold it, so he can get something better soon. Another has two or three used custom guns they bought at auction, etc. No one that shoots with me hasn't shot a muzzleloader because I make sure they shoot one if they come out with us. Those that already have shot one but haven't bought their own yet, I try to get behind one of my muzzleloaders almost every time we shoot.

[recurve]

This thread was opened NOT to judge one kit or another(or those who choose them) but to point out that without the dwindling suppliers of parts we might have fewer options in the future .
As we age our views change the average age of flintlock guys is 50 ,(or up) 
The statement of kits being a gate into  gun assembly ,then building seems to be the new norm, but like the 70s-80s you might only see one brand of flint rifle(thompson center)
 Till the revival of the custom hobby builders and pros.      The hope is all kits will up their game/parts .
I like the fact that more people are trying the sport and the adventure of rifle assembly and hope they might try building.

But keep in mind that if we don't support our flintlock based shops(Dixons , Log Cabin , in person and mail order track of the wolf, stone wall outfitters )we will loose our options as we are loosing the parts suppliers .

ONE size fits all is NOT the way to move on ,just as we are different so are our chouses ,but if we loose the suppliers we loose our  chouses,

With that said I hope to see All At the 18th Century Artison show or the Kempton Gun Makers Fair(do't miss Dixon's if you go or Cabela's)

The best example of what I'm trying to say is a cut agate will spark in a flintlock ,But most would rather have a custom Knapped Flint/chert  !
                                         
                                                They both spark but one just seems spark brighter in our  Locks.

Don't limit your options  expand your mind and our sport ,enjoy   


Give a man a fish he eats for a day , Teach a man to fish he eats for a life !

[Lone Wolf]

I’m very late to this thread and most of what I think on the topic has been covered already. But as a relatively younger and newer builder than most on here I will add a few comments and observations:

1) My gateway into this hobby was a Lyman Trade Rifle. While it was a great production gun for the money, it is certainly no Kibler in terms of appeal. So while production and kit guns help get people into the hobby, I don’t know how much of a difference the better quality of what is available today matters. In fact, it was the shortcomings of the production gun that led me to want a “proper” longrifle.

2) I haven’t done a Kibler kit, but I have experience with two other kits and after building one from a blank, I have to say that was ultimately easier and a better result than stumbling through and solving problems with the kits. I also learned a lot more by starting from scratch.  As I said I am younger than most on here but what holds me back is one thing: time. With a full time job and a family to raise I do not have the time to commit to building guns. To me the biggest advantage of a kit like Kibler is the potential time savings.  Working from other kits did not save me any time compared to starting with blank.

3) For the 20 years or so that I have been a blackpowder enthusiast, my observation has been that most in this hobby are “cotton tops”,  to borrow a term from earlier in this thread. So are we dealing with the same population of cotton tops who are now that much older, or is this a hobby that most don’t get into until later in life?  I suspect it is some of each, but I also believe that many carry the interest their entire lives but don’t jump in with both feet until retirement.  As old guys age out, they are replaced by the next generation of old guys, as it were.

4) Biggest threat to the industry that I see is not whether guys build from kits or blanks but the overall decline in our culture, values, and discipline that are catalysts behind this hobby.  Today’s generations are being raised to be ashamed of our country’s history and heritage and not many boys are growing up playing cowboys and Indians and watching Davy Crocket on Saturday mornings. In addition, the electronics age has given us shorter attention spans and the desire for instant gratification. These are not attributes of an artisan.  I hope that I am wrong and there will continue to be good recruitment in this hobby, even if it’s just fresh cotton tops, but there are some trends that will need to change as those cotton tops come of age.

 

[smylee grouch]

I dont have any idea how many scratch builders are lost to kit building but I,m sure some are lost because of a lack of parts as has been already said. Maybe a more friendly political environment will spur some new production of these parts. 

[Hawg]

What lack of parts? A quick google search turns up several places that sell reproduction parts. Chambers, Davis and L&R are still selling locks. A few places sell stocks with various stages of completion.

[smylee grouch]

There are MANY times I have seen on this very forum where people have had trouble finding specific parts such as correct for the build ( school ) castings as an example. 

[JDavidA]

One thought I have had is when we look back now we see the beauty of the guns built 200+ years ago with the engraving and carving using the tools they had. I think folks 200 years from now are going to see all these kits that have been assembled and IMO most don't have carving (although I see some have machine incised carving} and no engraving and wonder why these new guns are not as elaborate or beautiful as the ones before. Are they going to wonder how and why we regressed?

[smylee grouch]

JDavidA, I think you may be right to a certain extent but of course not all those old guns were elaborate. One is featured right now in the Antique Collectors section of this forum.

[rich pierce]

What lack of parts? A quick google search turns up several places that sell reproduction parts. Chambers, Davis and L&R are still selling locks. A few places sell stocks with various stages of completion.

You can get parts and build “a” gun. But if you want to build something specific, and unusual, you may not find what you’re looking for, whereas 20 years ago there were many more suppliers. Several custom barrel suppliers are out of business or way down in production as they age out and have not found anyone who wants to carry on. Davis locks seems to have petered out. I can’t find their English round faced lock. The Reeves Goehring castings, once the foundation of custom builds, are in short supply and undersized as copies of copies keep getting more shrinkage. Rumor has it another guy who stepped up offering brass castings finds foundries not eager for small runs. All the Peter Allen castings are gone, which affects everything from Hawken to jaeger parts. These are but a few examples. This is due to many factors. It’s never been lucrative to make ML parts.

My advice is to buy enough parts when you find them to build 10 or 20 guns. That keeps the suppliers in a good cash flow situation. Then when you realize, “I’m not interested or don’t have time to do THAT build, sell the parts here. They go fast.

[oldtravler61]

  Rich I second what you said. I'm currently trying to finish two pistols an both scratch build. I even advertised here that I needed two trigger guards.
If it wasn't for AZ Muzzleloaders I'd still be looking. Everywhere I looked they were out of stock.
  Now the way its going. You better make it yourself or wait a longtime.

[AZshot]

There has been great wisdom in some of these posts.  Lone Wolf and Rich Pierce in particular speak pointedly from the facts of the market and not emotions or bitterness. Good comments!

[Bsharp]

What I see is not the kits, but old age is taking away the elderly builders. I was so glad to see Smart Dog training an apprentice! What ever it takes to get young builders interested is what we need.

[recurve]

What might be needed is more Mentors ,

the  flintlock rifle building classes at the Jacobsburg Pa Long rifle museum was canceled yrs ago due to insurance being canceled, but they still have horn and bag building classes

Mr Pratt , Brooks, Estes and others hold classes that are great places to get the knowledge  passed along.

The other GREAT RESOURSE are the build videos. From Kibler, Grumpy Gunsmith of Williamsburg, NATIONAL MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE ASSOCIATION  and the young builders like  B Kauffman on you tube and rumble

[recurve]

I almost forgot the kempton gunmakers seminars

[T*O*F]

All the Peter Allen castings are gone, which affects everything from Hawken to jaeger parts. These are but a few examples.

Back in 1998-2000 I bought out several old suppliers, lock stock, and barrel.  They were in business in the 60s and 70s.  Several 100s of parts by Allen, Baxter, Siler, Haddaway, Northstar and many others.  I still have several 100s left, but unfortunately most of the popular parts have been sold and those remaining are for guns that no one is building today.  Perhaps we'll see a resurgence of percussion and half-stock guns by newer builders.