Off center enough to just leave it alone?

[Steeltrap]

So, my end result using this very elementary pic that I drew with a paint app, The red vertical dash represents the center of where I want the bolt to go in this oversized hole.

The solid green represents the tang bolt, and the green dash line represents the "offset" of the counter sink that I will have finished the top of the hole.

So, the lock bolt will look centered when installed.....but the larger hole with the offset counter sink will not be seen.

[Martin S.]

It is only off by .005".  If it really bothers you, you should be able to pull it over with your countersink using the drill press and a vise.

I had this same problem.  I found it easier to correct using a countersink in a brace by hand rather than a drill press.  You can control the countersink bit much better by turning it a half a turn at a time.  Yes, it was slow, but it fixed my problem.

I also have had, in the past, a problem with a countersink in a drill press "chattering".  No chatter with a brace.

[okawbow]

I doubt the old time gunsmiths checked their tang holes with calipers. I’m sure they just marked and drilled the holes by”eye”. If it looks good, it is good. I own 3 original rifles, and all of them are a little off center.

[Clark Badgett]

I doubt the old time gunsmiths checked their tang holes with calipers. I’m sure they just marked and drilled the holes by”eye”. If it looks good, it is good. I own 3 original rifles, and all of them are a little off center.

How dare you!!!! 😁😁

[Steeltrap]

Counter sink chattering is a result of vibration. A hobby drill press should have all table clamps as tight as can be, along with the drill press vice clamped on both ends.

If the piece doesn't have parallel sides for the vice to hold it securely, I use maple scraps on each side of the piece, and "crank" the vice down so the piece will "crush" the wood and hold the piece. Don't overdo this.

[Pukka Bundook]

Yep, I'd file to centre then counter sink.


All best,
R.

[kutter]

I'd either:
 File the hole out round to the correct position. Then clear it with a drill useing the smallest dia needed to barely make it round again.
Chuck that drill up very close to the point so it doesn't wander and keep the drill press /table / vise assembly down tight and vibration free.

Then w/o removing the tang from the drill press assembly, counter-bore or counter-sink it .

I don't care to use the V shaped counter sink. But instead like to use a counter-bore instead.
The flat bottomed staight sided counterbore gives a better look IMO and if the angle is set correctly for the tang screw going thru the tang down to the trigger plate, you won't end up with the oval shaped cut often seen w/a countersink.

Another way to fix the off center hole is to plug it first with a piece of steel rod/pin.
Soft solder it in lace and file it of flush top and bottom of the tang.

Now start over.
Mark the exxact location for the tang screw as before.
Set up the drillpress, clamp the work, etc.
Use a CenterDrill to lightly touch the work to make sure the set up is drilling where you want it to AND at the correct angle to the trigger plate.

Center drill.
Then followup with a slightly larger diameter SHARP drill bit,,again chucked up short to prevent it from wandering.
Use a good cutting lube.
Drill final hole with a sharp bit chucked up short and lubed.

Do the CounterSink or CounterBore in the same setup w/o moving anything as above.

Any appearance of the soldered in place plug will be gone when the CounterSink/Bore in completed.

I look at it like this.
It's your building skills on display.
Do the very best you are capable of. Even if you have to go back and make things right.

[Scota4570]

Regular countersinks tend to chatter unless run very slow.  I do not like the look of an oversized chamfer that exceeds the diameter of the screw head.  So, I make most of my chamfers.  The small non piloted ones have an OD that allows the screw head to recess a tiny bit.  I think that looks best.

Half round single flute cutters work good and do not tend to chatter.  I match the taper to the screw and the OD of the screw head. These small chamfers can be run in a cordless drill because the surface speed at the edge of the cutter is relative slow.   These can be made on the grinder in a hand held drill.  You can buy them but I have no easy source, and they are dirt simple to make. 

The piloted ones are for various bolts, like tang bolts.  I make them on the lathe/mill.  Heat treating is to heat red, quench,. draw to straw color.  Sometimes I include a swappable pilot.  The idea is the same as above, I match the OD and taper of the screw or bolt.  IF you make the pilot match the hole they do not chatter.  They give professional looking results. 

[Steeltrap]

My current thinking is I'm not a fan of filling up the hole (screw\silver solder, etc) and then re-drill. I'm pretty sure I can do an off center counter sink using (as others have said) small files to put the hole on center.

If I really botch that up I can always go back to the "drill'n fill" method.

[Pukka Bundook]

I wouldn't try to do an offset head like in your diagram above, Steeltrap.

Reason being, if the tang screw is removed and replaced a few times and as the wood settles in, it will index somplace else and be out of whack in the hole.
Its a very easy job to file to centre then countersink.
Single cut countersinks are common, and do not chatter.

[Hawg]

Look close enough at almost any factory built rifle and you will find something somewhere that's not perfect. Don't sweat the petty things. My rifle isn't perfect. I showed it to my son in law the other day and he looked it over good and said he didn't see anything wrong but I see them.

[whetrock]

Seems to me that there are two major philosophies going on in the comments you have collected so far.
One is an "18th c. workman-like ethic". The other is “finest fit and finish”.
The “workman-like ethic” guys try to keep the old masters and antiques in mind as they build. Most old guns show evidence of quick and confident workmanship. They include little “mistakes” and tool marks—stuff like file marks left on the inside of a trigger guard, off-center screw slots, screw slots that were not timed (not lined up), scraper marks left in some spots, a few hammer marks left in a forged barrel, and slightly off-centered tang bolts heads, as well. For some guys, these little details are charming. They show the humanity of the old masters. (Instead of just seeing the art, the tool marks can kind of let you see past the art, to see the artist there as well.)
Some of the “highest level of fit and finish” guys see those same little “mistakes” as an indication of sloppy, hurried craftsmanship. They set a goal for themselves of pushing beyond what the old masters could produce. They hope to build a perfect gun with no details that anyone might fault—maybe even a gun with no tool marks visible to the naked eye.
It’s not completely a dichotomy. It’s more like a spectrum. A lot of us are in between. And a lot of us start on one end of the spectrum and slowly migrate to the other.
But the two extremes are different goals. Both are fine, but they are very different, and the contrast is a source of debate on here again and again. So I guess what I'm saying is that you might want to take a minute and evaluate which school of thought you like the best. Your very slightly off-center tang bolt would not be out of place on a 18th c. rifle.

[Daniel Coats]

At least some faults on antique and contemporary guns are unnoticeable because they were fixed.

[whetrock]

Yeah, as you are suggesting, Daniel, learning to fix mistakes is definitely part of the game. I agree.


For any new builder reading this, I posted something on philosophies of builders back in 2013. Here's a link. Might be useful.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25329.msg242445#msg242445

[Dphariss]

If it really bothers you then what Eric and Taylor explained. It works. But it looks pretty close and if it looks OK with the screw in place, just dropped in the hole, why worry.

[Steeltrap]

This pistol I'm building is based upon the Chambers American Pistol.

As I was studying pics of this pistol I happen to notice on this beautiful pistol, that their tang bolt is off center. Well, if not off center it certainly appears to be. I just have to stop overthinking some stuff!!!

[Pukka Bundook]

Camera angle I believe, but yes, don't overthink it!

[Bigmon]

I am anal about holes being centered.  I can't stand it if not near perfect.  I know it's not that important but to me it is just a sign of a "workmanlike manner".
I drill my tang holes small.  Then if not to my liking I use a small round file and work it until it is centered best I can.  Then I drill to the correct size.  That usually works, unless my first hole is just too far off center.  So far that has not happened and I have been able to make them all come out well.

[Scota4570]

I make things the best I can.  Could be finish carpentry, model aircraft, machine work, auto body or gunmaking.  IF I find myself with little room for improvement I get bored and move on to other hobbies.  To me the challenge is not making a functional gun.  Making a beautiful and functional gun that I am proud of is the point.  Each build is a little better than the last.  Continual improvement is the challenge for me.

There is nothing wrong with folk art.  It is just not what I prefer to make. 

[JTR]

I make things the best I can.  Could be finish carpentry, model aircraft, machine work, auto body or gunmaking.  IF I find myself with little room for improvement I get bored and move on to other hobbies.  To me the challenge is not making a functional gun.  Making a beautiful and functional gun that I am proud of is the point.  Each build is a little better than the last.  Continual improvement is the challenge for me.

There is nothing wrong with folk art.  It is just not what I prefer to make.

Different strokes for different folks!
I like astro photography. For most of the pictures I take, I take about 15 hours of total exposure time to create the image.
I have a friend that rarely takes more than 1.5 hours total exposure time.
He's always asking me why I waste so much time taking pictures, and I ask him when is he going to try to make a better image?
Really, no answer either way.
John

[alacran]

To me this is all so funny. Guys here try to get perfection as to a tang hole being perfectly centered, or pins not perpendicular to a barrel or lock panels that are not symmetrical. Then they try to make their guns look like they are 200 years old.

[kutter]

I'm thinking the ones that like the heavy use and patina look on their new builds are those that are not particularly bothered by an off the mark screw hole.

I keep in mind that when the often refered to 'Old Masters' completed a gun, it looked pretty much as new as one that any one of us would complete today.
Off center, mis-shapen, non-matching, crooked,,,,not terms I'd necessarily want to see listed under the achievements of anyone on the scroll of 'The Old Masters'.,,no matter what trade they are working in.

What happened to the lump of iron and a hand file test,,,'Here you go Lad,, file this into a perfect cube or a sphere.
The sign of a true craftsman. Prove yourself'.
'When you're done, drill those tang screw holes. Anywhere close is fine.' No body cares anyway, they're supposed to look 'Old'.

Why base your abilities and goals on the limits of what others have achieved.
Maybe you can do better,,perhaps they didn't care to do any better.

[rich pierce]

The question each of us face is, “does this imperfection ruin the build for me?”  If not, move on. If so, fix it.

Remember that gunsmiths in colonial and Federal periods had to get the gun built and delivered, and money received. They did not have some of the toys we have. Dial indicators on our lathes. Milling machines. Digital calipers. Micrometers. Most didn’t have a drill press.

[whetrock]

I hope Steeltrap got some useful input out of this thread. It seems like most of it migrated to the old debate.

I appreciate Rich’s comment about the contrast in tools and methods.

When I was about 16 years old, I got a set of the Foxfire books for Christmas. I devoured volume 5. On page 264 it quoted an article about Hacker Martin from the 1965 edition of Muzzleblast. I read something there that really captured my imagination. I have gone back to read it many times since.

“Hacker believes to build a rifle like the old timers you must use the same methods and tools they used. Hacker tells of a collector friend of his who was showing his collection off to a famous gun expert. The expert, after looking over the collection, picked up a pistol Hacker had made for a friend only two weeks before. The expert told the owner that it was the finest pistol in his collection, and he proceeded to tell when the pistol was made and in what location. The collector had to take the lock off the pistol and show the expert the new wood before the expert would believe the pistol was a new one and not made in the late seventeen hundreds.”

Of course there is such a thing as sloppy craftsmanship. I agree that we should do our best work. And if a slightly off-center hole is gonna bug you, then fix it.

But I do hope there is room on here to recognize that there is a legitimate philosophy within which ever so slightly off-center holes, slightly off-center screw slots, etc. are not mistakes. A thorough understanding of the 18th c. workmanlike ethic and an effort to achieve the style of the old masters is not sloppy craftsmanship. It’s not for lack of skill. It is a skill in itself. It’s on purpose.