Question about Nock type breech

[exTNer]

Just wondering if anyone here is shooting, on a regular basis with a Nock style breech?  I guess I sorta see the theoritical possibility of higher velocity, but isn't it harder to clean, and more prone to fouling?  The reason I ask is, the old .45 CVA kit that I finished last year had a similar set-up with it's drilled 'drum' and sub-caliber 'powder chamber' in the forward end of the breech plug.  After many hang-fires, no-fires and serious cleaning sessions every few shots, I 'modded' it. 

Thanks
J

[Joe Stein]

Do a search for Nock breech, or Nock's breech.  Dan Pharris has written a fair amount about them.  Search Gun Building, Shooting & Antique postings.
-Joe

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If all you're doing to clean is running wet patches in and out of your barrel, you are not cleaning the fouling out of the breech area, no matter what kind of breech you have.  IMHO you must pump cold water under pressure in and out with a tight patch on a jag, to get every bit of fouling out.  You can do it by immersing the breech of the barrel in a bucket of cold water, or by using a special contraption that attaches to the barrel, and has a hose running into a bucket of water.  Were rifles cleaned this way during the 18th century?  Perhaps and perhaps not.  Witness how many are extant, and in desperate conditions in their bores.  That's not how I want my rifles to be.
...as I step down from my soap box...

[exTNer]

Joe,

 I did a search before I posted this, but got durned few hits.  Is there an 'old' section that I missed somewhere?  I'll look again, and search the whole site, not just 'gun building'.

DTS-
Yes, I always do a thorough cleaning with water pumped though the whole system, after the shooting session is done.  Maybe even to the point of creating extra wear with the cleanout screw out and nipple off after.  I'm talking about only getting 3-4 shots at the range, before hang-fires and then no-fires at 5-6 shots even with wiping between shots.  With the Nock's type breech, especially in percussion, there just seems to be lots of long, restrictive passages that would seem to hinder getting more than 2-3 shots before a bucket of water is required.   But, all I've ever shot is that 'wonderful' old CVA, and I'm still looking for my next project.

Thanks guys

[exTNer]

Joe, fount'er.  The answers were mostly the collecting section.  whodda thunk answers about an antique gun design would be in the 'antique collecting' section.  Not me, apparently!!

Sorry to rattle the cages. 

[exTNer]

RB, thanks for the pics.  Yep, that's purty much what the CVA is, but with the addition of extra passage and turn, and a nipple (percussion).  Maybe that is the key, and wondering if there is more fouling/debris in a percussion system?   Well, that gives more credence to my wanting a flint next time, and maybe converting the CVA over?  hmm...

[Acer Saccharum]

Also look at how you run a patch down your bore. If the jag is too tight, you'll be pushing all the crud ahead of the jag. Ideally, the patched jag will be small enough to slip past the fouling, then bunch up on the retract stroke, pulling the fouling with it.

[exTNer]

As an update, my CVA no longer has these issues.  I did a little 'work' on it, since I was having so many problems.  I removed the drum and cut it to normal drum length and then bored out the 'powder chamber', first with .375" bit, then .435 bit, so it more closely resembles the Nock version in Roundballs pix.  Did this from the muzzle, so I was a little tense thinking about snapping a bit off down in there.  Also 'vented' the drum with #50 bit, between clean out screw and barrel, forward at 45 degree angle.  This made it tons of fun to shoot, with one wipe at each shot, pretty much as long as I want.  What a difference. 

Acer, I was wondering about that tight jag just pushing the fouling down the bore.  May have to slim up the one I have, or look for a smaller one.

Wow, ask just one little question, and now you guys got me thinking for a week!  Thanks

[Roger Fisher]

"Some" guys decided not to use a seperate cleaning patch between shots for that very reason (shoving fouling onto the plug face/chamber)  Spit patch it cleans while loading and when you shoot!!!  Works for some of us!

[exTNer]

Part of me is still a little shy about not running a patch down stream between shots.  I give a little puff of breath before the wipe patch too, not so much to soften the fouling but to make sure there ain't no hot 'coals' down there.   When I'm shooting at the range, I am spit patcing.  More to avoid messing with other lube, and I usually don't forget to take spit to the range.
There's been a couple of times tho...

[Pete Allan]

If anyone is interested in why they came up with the Nock breeches way back when it was because the black powder of the day ranged from very good to almost worthless. If you have ever used Serpentine powder you know what I am about to say. Back then they had powder ranging from high quality corned powder to dust fine Serpentine. I have fired a good bit of Serpentine and one shot it will fire just like todays powder and the next shot will little more than get the ball or shot out of the barrel and on the ground out front. The Nock breech puts a hot flame right up the center of Serpentine powder thus lighting the whole mess at once instead of sometimes burning like a fuze. The Nock breech also brought with it shorter shotgun barrels which in turn made wing shooting a very popular sport.

[stuart cee dub]

I had a fouling piece so chambered years ago in a flinter .It  fouled badly ,I had to make a special scraper to clear the sub-chamber.
Nor was not any faster. Really it was more hassle than it was worth,IMHO.

While at the time it was intended to focus the heat with powders of day as Pete Allen suggested and burn the powder more completely
 (As gun cranks  maybe we all read the same stuff regarding Nock patent breech) It solved a problem that is less of a problem now.  
Just use more powder and skip the cleaning hassle. Also one of the technical problems one can run into is that the longer touch hole tends to
act like a fuse and actually slow things down unless you are using an improved touchhole liner. Just one more thing to go wrong .We tend to shoot a lot as sport shooters and we may need a few more rounds out of a gun before we call it quits .

I have no doubt some very skilled gunsmiths have relearned the secret having made enough bad ones on the way to good ones and maybe I was on of the dips in the learning curve,I had mine done as it was beyond my skill level. But  maybe a well installed flat plus and a good touchhole liner that brings the main charge closest to the touchhole will serve more people better in the long run.

[northmn]

I built a 12 bore with a very long chamber using a similar system to that described. I use slotted cleaning jag to work the fouling out of the smaller chamber.  I have no real problem with ignition, it seems a little slow at times but I think I can fix it with a better vent similar to a Chambers WL.  It does have a tendency to rust more than the barrel. 

DP

[Daryl]

For those who think they have to blow down the bore after a shot, try carrying a pressurized computer screen cleaner like the can of air.  You can blow the air down the muzzle or through the vent or nipple with a small chunk of rubber over the end to help seal.  A small hole throught he piece of rubber will pass the air into the bore or nipple and the rubber will seal the junction.  This will also help keep the channel open and unclogged by fouling if done from the rear.  Just a tought.