Author Topic: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup  (Read 1467 times)

Offline smart dog

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Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« on: January 09, 2025, 06:09:59 AM »
Hi,
I am making an 18th century British sporting rifle modelled somewhat on a pair of rifles made by John Twigg shown in Neal's book "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790".  I am not copying them just using the style as inspiration.  This rifle will have double set triggers, something rarely if ever seen on British flintlock rifles.  It is what the owner wants. I am using the Davis Twigg flintlock.  I have issues with this lock, specifically, the tumbler and cock really should be positioned 1/16-3/32" closer to the pan.  However, I can make it work well and it has the exact look I want for the gun.  The mainspring that came with the lock is anemic.  So to bring the lock up to the standard I require, I made a new stronger spring.  I've posted threads about making springs in the past but this one involves making and fitting a claw to hook a stirrup attached to the  tumbler.  That has some unique challenges, which I think worth discussing.   So here is the cast spring and my 1075 steel blank cut and ready to go.  The steel is 1/8" thick and provided by Bob Roller.



Now let me be clear.  I do not have a milling machine, metal cutting bandsaw, or metal lathe. So those of you who want to post comments that this can be done easily on some machine please don't bother.  This is for folks who don't have those machine tools and you can make great springs without them. The great British lock makers during the 18th and early 19th centuries who made the best flintlocks of all time did not have those machines either.  The blank shows the appropriate shape and cuts you need to form the spring.  After cutting out the blank the next step is rotating the tab to form the lug.  Heat the neck red hot and turn 90 degrees with pliers.
 


Then I file away the excess metal on the inside of the top leaf to form the pin, which inserts into the hole in the lock plate.  I make sure the spring fits in place as it should. Next I file the end of the spring to provide for the raised claw.  I use a triangular file to cut the border of the raised section and to thin the spring at that point.



Then I use files to taper the top of the lower leaf of the spring toward the claw.



Using a MAPP gas torch, I make the main bend first bending with pliers and then hammering the bend closed with a ball peen and anvil.  It ends up looking like a little nuclear submarine don't you think?



I shape the lug with files.  I want it tall enough so the spring clears a large barrel.  However, it also has to be the right height to make sure the spring has proper geometry at half and full cock. I want the lower leaf to be close to straight when the lock is at full cock.



Next is shaping the claw.  This is not trivial.  First, the slot has to be positioned exactly right so it does not induce any sideways pressure on the stirrup, which could break it.  The groove for the pin on the claw has to be positioned correctly so the stirrup arm can rotate freely and it has to have a recess at the base of the slot to allow the pivot arm on the tumbler to clear the spring.
 





I opened the main bend a little and straightened the lower leaf to fit properly in the lock.  Then I filed bevels on the edges of both leaves, filed decorative details into the lug, and polished up the spring.  I then heated it bright orangey red hot with 2 MAPP gas torches and quenched it in brine.  Next, I rinsed it in clean water, dried it and then tempered it at 750 degrees F for 1 hour. It came out very well and is much stronger than the cast spring that came with the lock.

 



dave
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Offline flatsguide

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2025, 07:08:29 AM »
Thanks for the informative write up and good photos too.
Cheers Richard

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2025, 12:18:08 PM »
And That is how That is done.

Making it any other way will not result in a better spring. Bending it gets the metal grain flowing properly and resilts in a more durable spring. Cutting it in its final shape as is done with wire edm or possibly a mill doesn’t give the part the same grain structure.

Thanks for posting that.

Mike

Offline Clowdis

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2025, 04:40:52 PM »
Good tutorial smart dog, well done!

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2025, 06:03:09 PM »
Very well explained Dave, and beautifully executed! 

I propose this become a sticky!

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2025, 06:34:15 PM »
I feel your pain. I built a rifle with this lock and have forged two new mainsprings and a new frizzen spring for it to try to get consistent results. I can get reliable ignition with it now but only if the flint is the perfect size. I have decided I will replace it with a different lock. Tired of fooling with it. I call it the lock from $@&:;&@. The geometry is all wrong. Here’s the new frizzen spring I made, guess I don’t have a photo of the mainspring. The first mainspring I didn’t use stout enough stock. Second one works well but after that the frizzen spring broke during a match one day.


VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2025, 06:42:44 PM »
Here is a similar job. I had a plate, cock and frizzen in a bunch of parts I got from an estate and then made the internals and mainspring. Probably most difficult is getting the little link between mainspring and tumbler exactly right length and shape.






VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2025, 07:08:47 PM »
Lots of work for sure.Dave's lock looks like the Chet Shoults Ketland which in turn was copied by Mr.Cochran.The Davis Twigg was one I bought external parts for,10 sets and made 4 more.Smart Dog's tutorial on making a main spring without any power tools is a well done
article and shows the the obvious experience of a craftsman that knew what he needed and then went on by doing it.The 1075 he used was part of my inventory and lends itself to hand tools.I will say that what was shown here can be done minus powered tools.I would be non functional without my machine shop I have become non functional anyhow.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 04:46:12 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2025, 07:10:13 PM »
Hi,
Thanks for looking and commenting folks.  David, I share your experience as well.  I reshaped the hump on the feather spring upon which the battery roller cams.  Now, when the pan cover is about 35 degrees above the pan, the roller and spring take over to flip it fully open.  I also filed the shoulder on the flint cock so it falls forward a little more but without the stirrup on the tumbler dropping below the lock plate. Here is the spring mounted in the lock.

 


Note at full cock, the lower leaf of the spring is straight with no upward bend.



With the original mainspring installed, it only took a little over 8 lbs of force to pull the flint cock back to half cock and a little less to go to full cock.  With the new spring, it takes almost 12 lbs of force to pull the flint cock back to half cock and then only 7lbs to go to full cock. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2025, 12:16:40 AM »
Looks great sir.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Clint

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2025, 05:54:07 AM »
Very nice spring, Dave. When a flat peice of metal is bent sharply, the edges pucker out and the flat surface goes a little hollow. One more light heat and you can tuck the pucker in and get much of the hollow pushed back in, preserving a tiny bit of steel (strength) and cutting the amount of filing. Rule # one in blacksmithing (for me) is hammer everything possible and file what you have to. I am happy to see that you hardened in brine rather than oil. Oil is fine if the steel requires it but a lot of oil hardening over a couple of years makes a very dirty shop. Don't forget to sharpen your snow shovel!

Steeltrap

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2025, 02:19:47 PM »



Using a MAPP gas torch, I make the main bend first bending with pliers and then hammering the bend closed with a ball peen and anvil.  It ends up looking like a little nuclear submarine don't you think?


I literally LOL when I read this part.....I thought I would wake the Mr's....but fortunately, no.

What did you use to get the temper up to 750 degrees?  I can't recall if my gas grill will get that high or not.

Thanks!  Great post!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 02:24:12 PM by Steeltrap »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2025, 02:47:56 PM »
Hi Clint,
Thank you for that comment about hammering the sides of the bend!  I've never thought to do that but of course it would fill up any void and would be easy to do.  That will be standard procedure for me from now on.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2025, 09:22:53 PM »
When a bend is made the material naturally becomes thinner.  This is an area where you really don't want it to become thinner.  There are of course a couple of choices...  You can leave extra material on your preformed piece in this area prior to bending.  You can also make the spring and bend it out of thicker material and then thin / taper your legs after the bending process.

Jim

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2025, 09:38:04 PM »
The method I used to start the bend in a mainspring were to taper the part that would be the lower limb and form and finish the claw.
I made a plate with a 3/32x 3/8 groove in a piece of flat ground low carbon and then tapered the upper end.I placed the ready to bend spring in the groove and set it vertical in the vise that has smooth jaws.A witness mark with a pencil 3/8 of an inch below the projection that will be the pin and then using a torch with a small tip I heat the spring bright orange and bend it with a hammer and that creates a major bend.Then the spring and the plate are removed and then spring is reheated to the bright orange heat and the forging done on a bench anvil and then the upper and lower limbs are aligned by tapping the upper limb.The forging is tight and when the cool off is over the inner and outer sides are evened and the pin thru the plate is roughed in and finished with a hollow mill usually to .086 which is a number 44 drill bit.
The upper limb is tapered using a milling machine to start it and then filed to a finish and the spread open by reheating and slighly curving the upper limb and then a longer curve on the lower limb and it's made to be about 1/2 lower than the link.After cooling it is lighly polished using a light abrasive on a rubber wheel and them heated bright orange and dropped in the oil and when cooled a magnet gets it out and then cleaned and repolished and tempered with a small tip Bernz O Matic torch taking it to a dark blue.The when ciiled it's connected to the link and flexed to a full rotation as it would be when the lock was assembled.I know this sounds like a lot of work but my reputation rides on reliable springs and carefully made parts.
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2025, 09:59:29 PM »
Hi,
Thanks for looking and commenting folks.  David, I share your experience as well.  I reshaped the hump on the feather spring upon which the battery roller cams.  Now, when the pan cover is about 35 degrees above the pan, the roller and spring take over to flip it fully open.  I also filed the shoulder on the flint cock so it falls forward a little more but without the stirrup on the tumbler dropping below the lock plate. Here is the spring mounted in the lock.

 


Note at full cock, the lower leaf of the spring is straight with no upward bend.



With the original mainspring installed, it only took a little over 8 lbs of force to pull the flint cock back to half cock and a little less to go to full cock.  With the new spring, it takes almost 12 lbs of force to pull the flint cock back to half cock and then only 7lbs to go to full cock. 

dave
The method I used to start the bend in a mainspring were to taper the part that would be the lower limb and form and finish the claw.
I made a plate with a 3/32x 3/8 groove in a piece of flat ground low carbon and then tapered the upper end.I placed the ready to bend spring in the groove and set it vertical in the vise that has smooth jaws.A witness mark with a pencil 3/8 of an inch below the projection that will be the pin and then using a torch with a small tip I heat the spring bright orange and bend it with a hammer and that creates a major bend.Then the spring and the plate are removed and then spring is reheated to the bright orange heat and the forging done on a bench anvil and then the upper and lower limbs are aligned by tapping the upper limb.The forging is tight and when the cool off is over the inner and outer sides are evened and the pin thru the plate is roughed in and finished with a hollow mill usually to .086 which is a number 44 drill bit.
The upper limb is tapered using a milling machine to start it and then filed to a finish and the spread open by reheating and slighly curving the upper limb and then a longer curve on the lower limb and it's made to be about 1/2 lower than the link.After cooling it is lighly polished using a light abrasive on a rubber wheel and them heated bright orange and dropped in the oil and when cooled a magnet gets it out and then cleaned and repolished and tempered with a small tip Bernz O Matic torch taking it to a dark blue.The when ciiled it's connected to the link and flexed to a full rotation as it would be when the lock was assembled.I know this sounds like a lot of work but my reputation rides on reliable springs and carefully made parts.One more thing.The tumbler arm on the lock shown looks flimsy to me.I hope it holds under a good main spring and the abrupt stop and the end of the firing cycle.
Bob Roller

Offline Joe R

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2025, 02:46:24 PM »
Maybe I missed it but I don’t see a good mainspring tutorial in the Tutorial section. I think this would be a good candidate. I also think normally these threads get cleaned up from comments when they are made tutorials but in this case I think there is some good side commentary from folks while know a lot about springs and spring building.

Offline JTR

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Re: Making a mainspring for a tumbler with stirrup
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2025, 09:17:57 PM »
Good tutorial on making springs!
I'm probably like most guys in that I can make the spring, shape it, bend it, etc, etc, but have a problem holding the temperature at 750 degrees, or at whatever temp, for an hour to temper. The local shop here will do it for $265 bucks, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. I tried the molten lead pot with no luck, and I've thought about trying my Barbeque. No other gun guys around here either....
John Robbins