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Author Topic: identify this rifle please  (Read 8700 times)

jlh3rd

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identify this rifle please
« on: December 02, 2009, 05:33:33 PM »
has anyone here ever heard of  gunmaker J Moore.....it is stamped on top of the barrel of the long rifle my cousin owns......recently posted pics.......a very basic looking rifle...octagon barrel......
    your gonna laugh at this one, but my cousin says it belonged to Boone's brother and was given as a gift to one of the men that helped to rescue boone's daughter and friend that were kidnapped by indians....i've researched all about that rescue party and boonsborough.and boone's brothers and rifles and their rifle makers and nothing comes up..........try not to laugh too hard
.............anyway, i am curious about the rifle......
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 12:10:21 AM by jlh3rd »
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oakridge

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 06:30:38 PM »
I'm not laughing, but it will take a lot more information to help you out. Frank Sellers lists at least a dozen gunsmiths named Moore, with the first initial J, mostly working during the percussion era. If you could get photos, there are guys on this site that can usually give you a good idea of when and where it was made, or the general vicinity.
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jwh1947

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2009, 09:42:48 PM »
Why would we ever laugh at your story?  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 09:48:26 PM by jwh1947 »
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jlh3rd

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2009, 10:13:39 PM »
kinda far fetched.....don't you think....worth a chuckle......plus, i'm just being humble and didn't want to act like i knew it was a true story.....when i have no evidence....
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 12:27:44 AM »
Both squire and Daniel Boone had some ability as gunsmiths.... :)......They also purchsed, captured and traded guns as well as received gifts I would suppose........ The percussion lock maybe a replacement for an original flintlock. :o... So the thing we are all waiting for is for you to get a bunch of good pictures for us to look at  ;D

iTS PROBABLY NOT TRUE...BUT WE ARE ALL HOPING..... ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 12:29:01 AM by DrTimBoone »
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jwh1947

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 01:01:13 AM »
Pardon my sarcasm, but we've heard similar stories before, some quite elaborate. 

Just last night at the Legion a guy offered for sale a tomahawk that "John Harris, Jr. got from a local Indian chief.  Been in the family for years." While I certainly told him to produce it, the first things I'll be looking for are markings like "Golden State Arms" or "Trader Vic's."  Then I want to rule out Beaver Bill's mark and products of my own shop. There's a 1/1000 chance that he has a decent hawk, sans the story, and it costs me nothing to look.
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Offline Longknife

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 06:18:51 PM »
You will have to open an account with "Photobucket". Download the photos to that site and then to this site, Its all FREE!!!!!!!!!

http://photobucket.com/
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Ed Hamberg

jlh3rd

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 07:18:30 PM »
[IMG]http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af295/jlh3rd/gunpic2.jpg[/IMG]



  
there is actually some ornate engravings on the right side plate..two quails, plus other scrolling....there is no  box in the stock....any ideas ? as to origin ...



« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 09:02:32 PM by jlh3rd »
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jlh3rd

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 07:19:37 PM »
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jlh3rd

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 08:43:01 PM »





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jlh3rd

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 08:44:15 PM »




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jlh3rd

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Re: another gummaker question
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 08:45:16 PM »





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Offline JTR

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2010, 12:54:02 AM »
It's a little out of my area of interests, but looks like a New York made rifle to me. Say about 1850/1870ish.
I'm sure other guys will post a better answer, but I'm sorry to say that for sure it isn't anything D Boone's brother ever saw. :'(

John
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John Robbins

Offline nord

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2010, 04:23:46 PM »
My first impression is a NY rifle. The perch-belly stock fairly screams it. Generally most popular north of the Finger Lakes and from Syracuse or Rochester westward into Ohio. Walnut stock tends to indicate a somewhat later piece. Probably Civil War era or a bit later.

Now... I said "My first impression". The iron trigger guard is unusual. I'd be more comfortable if it was brass. Still, considering the period made and the overall impression of being constructed as a solid purpose-built rifle, I'll stand by NY.

I'd be willing to guess a Remington barrel on this piece. The stamp will be found on the lower barrel flat hidden by the stock.

As for this rifle's history, unless solid provenance is established there isn't much to say. This is a fine example of one branch of the long rifle genealogy that was all but an end even as this rifle was produced.

By the way...

John P. Moore - Union, NY (25 miles south of Syracuse)
Ref: "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned Roberts
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 04:33:35 PM by nord »
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Mike R

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 05:13:00 PM »
Yep, sorry, this was not in the Boone era. In fact every rifle I have seen attributed to Boone himself [+/- 5 or so around] seemed too late in period--of course Dan'l lived into the early 19th cent [~1820, I forget exact date of death] and was born ~1734 or 36 [sorry, old age is taking my mind] so he and his brother Squire saw alot of changes and owned lots of guns [Dan'l reportedly had ~ 5 rifles stolen by Indians over the years, including one in his old age by Osages in Mo].  
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 05:14:29 PM by Mike R »
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 10:08:22 PM »
John P. Moore was first active in New York City 1820 (and may have been the son of gunsmith John Moore of the same place) and continued for a long time. As J. P. Moore & Son: 1859-1864, as John P. Moore's Sons: 1864-1888 when the firm was sold to another. Ref:The New York State Firearms Trade (H. J. Swinney, Michael Lewis, Roderic Blackburn) Vol. 5 New York City, 2003. p.329-335. This cased gun illustrated p.332-3.

Photos of one of his guns: BEAUTIFUL http://rhbantiques.com/Firearms.html
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 10:09:18 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline nord

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 11:30:50 PM »
Tim -

I respectfully agree and disagree. Moore & Son tended to be fancy rifles. High end guns if you will. They would often show an English influence. Never have I seen a perch belly of utilitarian nature from them.

Unless something arises to the contrary I'll stand by my opinion. This is a Western NY rifle made in Union, NY.

This same discussion arose on Antiqueguns several years ago. Union could have been a town (now dissolved) in the Albany area, the Town of Union near Binghamton, or Union as in Union Square NYC. Never did I consider the hamlet of Union, NY. 

It turned out that we identified the Moore as a NYC gun, though probably made for the trade in England. A very nice gun as I remember. In this matter we were correct.

Now for Union, NY... I've passed by this hamlet countless times, though I've never been through it. Given the Antiquegun rifle, its quality, and the fact that Roberts had mentioned Union I had convinced myself that it was connected somehow with the Albany (Union) area. I just couldn't figure how.

But this rifle... All the earmarks of a Western NY rifle. The wood, the iron guard, the belly, and the utilitarian nature all argue for Union, NY and against anywhere else. Roberts was correct all along.
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Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 01:03:56 AM »
Hey, guys it could be a Boone gun, you know like George W's hatchet, only instead of the head and poll being replaced two or three times, the barrel, stock and lock, have ben used up and replaced, but the sights are original! ::) ::) ::) ;D  It's most likely a New York gun 1840's to 1860"s.

Bill
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:08:48 AM by Bill Knapp »
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Bill Knapp
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scooter

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 02:57:09 AM »
I would suggest you have been given good advice both of area of manufacture and on the Boone story. Oral stories aren't worth the paper they aren't written on. Real provenance is what is required & my guess is you will never come close to that. It may be great as a family heirloom but please compare with guns shown in this site's library.
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Offline nord

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 04:59:13 PM »
Moore family in Madison Co. NY serving in the Civil War.

MOORE, Israel P.   35 Hamilton 1st Sgt.Co. G, 157th NYSV

MOORE, James       20 Stockbridge      Batt. A, 1st NYHA   b.8/25/44

MOORE, Jason       19 Cazenovia        Co. E, 22d Cav.   d. at Andersonville

MOORE, John H.     16 Stockbridge      Co. A, 94th NYSV 7/18/40?-1900 Munnsville

MOORE, Milton T.                       Co. F, 28th Conn. Inf.

MOORE, William H.  23 Sullivan         Co. I, 157th NYSV  deserted 10/6/63

                                      from the hospital at West Philadelphia, PA

MOORES, Jason      18 Nelson
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jlh3rd

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 10:11:31 PM »
thanks for the comments....anyone else..feel free................................now i need to research the allegedly " queen victoria, or ann or etc." bodyguard rifle another cousin has....
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: identify this rifle please
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2010, 10:55:39 PM »
Quote from: nord on January 20, 2010, 11:30:50 PM
Tim -

I respectfully agree and disagree. Moore & Son tended to be fancy rifles. High end guns if you will. They would often show an English influence. Never have I seen a perch belly of utilitarian nature from them.

Unless something arises to the contrary I'll stand by my opinion. This is a Western NY rifle made in Union, NY.

This same discussion arose on Antiqueguns several years ago. Union could have been a town (now dissolved) in the Albany area, the Town of Union near Binghamton, or Union as in Union Square NYC. Never did I consider the hamlet of Union, NY. 

It turned out that we identified the Moore as a NYC gun, though probably made for the trade in England. A very nice gun as I remember. In this matter we were correct.

Now for Union, NY... I've passed by this hamlet countless times, though I've never been through it. Given the Antiquegun rifle, its quality, and the fact that Roberts had mentioned Union I had convinced myself that it was connected somehow with the Albany (Union) area. I just couldn't figure how.

But this rifle... All the earmarks of a Western NY rifle. The wood, the iron guard, the belly, and the utilitarian nature all argue for Union, NY and against anywhere else. Roberts was correct all along.

I certainly defer to your knowledge of W NY guns. The architecture is simialr to the Moore gun in NYC in my link, but the quality did seem different......reinforcing the W. NY idea??? 
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Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming
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