Violin Making: As It Was and Is

[Frozen Run]

Eric Kettenburg says this is a spectacular resource for finish nerds. Fed period Northampton/Lehigh work. Here is the book:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924022320216/mode/1up

[wvcruffler]

I have read this one and a few others as I mess about with oil and spirit varnishes. With repsect to musket and rifle finishes from the flintlock era most of what I can find is that largely they are most often a drying oil (linseed oil, tung oil), a resin that add hardness (pine resin, copal, colophony) and a thinner (traditionally turpentine - I usually use white mineral spirits).

I have 2 sets of "old school" oil varnishes - one set are copal varnishes where I melted copal then boiled to the point of heavy oxidation the mixture of sweidsh BLO (no dryers added) and the copal. One of these I alos added calcium oxide to raise the pH and raise the melting point of the mixture. One of these spent a short period of time on fire as I was unable to contain a small boil over that became a little flame up. Since this was planned for in advance I set a large lid on my gum pot and it went out without needed to grab the fire extiguisher (also handy!) mind you I run these gums in the gravel driveway on my farm away from buildings. The other resin varnish is colophony and BLO.  On all of them I used white mineral spirits because good turpentine is EXPENSIVE!

The best one so far is the one I caught on fire!! Its dark brown and dries in 24 hours. It's a little too thick but my wood testers are small so hand rubbing the finish is no problem.

I also have BLO+Rosin pentaeryhtritol ester (aka Permalyn). This one dries pretty slowly and TBH I don't love it. But its a modern more waterproof finish.

In the pipeline I have most of the gums for spirit varnishes that were reportedly used as an "sealing coat", often containing color like alkanet used on kentucky rifles. Again, pretty sparse information available. Shellac, gum mastic, sandarac, etc.).  I did this on my Woodrunner (tinted shellac under a commercial BLO) and it love how it turned out.

Anyway, if anyone reads this and would like a sample of the oil varnish to play with I'll send you some free. Would love to get some ciritcal input on it.

drPhil

[Leatherbark]

For what it is worth, I read where scientists figured out how to make a modern-day Stradivarius by reading directions from the maker from back in the day using the same wood.  But the newly made ones would never sound the same as an original.  Seems the original maker (Stradivarius?) left specific instructions but failed to leave the formula for the varnish he used.  Seems scientists figured out his varnish was what makes the Stradivarius violin sound unique.  They cannot replicate that varnish. Something about the way it dries and the sound waves and the varnish's dried texture.

[okawbow]

I’ve made quite a few violins and believe most of the sound that comes from Stradavari violins is due to them being over 300 years old and having been worked on and fine tuned by the best luthiers in the world. Most don’t retain the original varnish. Most have been modified and rebuilt several times. In blind sound tests; few people can tell the difference between the Stads and a really good modern made violin. Here’s one I finished this year, made from materials I harvested myself. ( except for the ebony) I use the same ground mixture and varnish on my flintlocks. Here’s one I finished this year.

[Martin S.]

I am continually impressed by the ability and talent of the people on this forum.

Well done on the violin.

[wvcruffler]

I’ve made quite a few violins and believe most of the sound that comes from Stradavari violins is due to them being over 300 years old and having been worked on and fine tuned by the best luthiers in the world. Most don’t retain the original varnish. Most have been modified and rebuilt several times. In blind sound tests; few people can tell the difference between the Stads and a really good modern made violin. Here’s one I finished this year, made from materials I harvested myself. ( except for the ebony) I use the same ground mixture and varnish on my flintlocks. Here’s one I finished this year.

Do you use a spirit varnish (shellac, sandarac etc) like a French polish or an oil varnish? Gorgerous either way. I thought about using rottenstone to smooth up my woodrunner but then decided the woodrunner isn't a hand rubbed finish gun. Its nice but not "too nice"

[okawbow]

Do you use a spirit varnish (shellac, sandarac etc) like a French polish or an oil varnish? Gorgerous either way. I thought about using rottenstone to smooth up my woodrunner but then decided the woodrunner isn't a hand rubbed finish gun. Its nice but not "too nice"


I use several coats of fresh mixed shellac and sometimes alcohol soluble resins over a propolis wash as a ground. The top coats are colored oil varnish. I use a similar system on flintlocks but normally stain the wood first.

[Daryl]

drPhil how about some pictures of your Woodsrunner?

[wvcruffler]

Sure I need to get it out this week anyway to get on paper

[Birddog6]

Only violin finish I ever used was on a fiddle I restored for my dad. Ol man Richmon or
Rickmond in Columbus Ohio sold me some & he called it Spirit Shellac. Dark reddish &
the more you put on the darker it got.  It was $110. for a tiny bottle, and in 1980 that
was steep for a young working man raising a family. VERY thin coats with a special brush
that cost $ 20. too.  Heck the finish & brush cost  2 weeks worth of groceries back then.
 
He also said to Be SURE to let the instrument Acclimate to the room temp for 2 hrs before
removing it from the case in the winter in Ohio.  The Cold to hot room temp could shatter
the finish.

Repairing that is not something I ever did again.  Had to make a padded form for everything
I clamped & glued, as not to damage the wood. Spruce top I think, bookmatched curly maple
on the back.

Would not use it for a gun finish. Too easy to damage.

[cornbread]

This discussion caught my attention because I’m always looking for a finish to restore a couple Harpers Ferry firearms on both metal and stocks. In fact, one has a finish on the stock that sounds like this mixture and I think it’s original.

Also, this reminds me of the toxic “dragon’s blood” finish used to brown the metal.

Regards,
James

[Eric Kettenburg]

I just want to interject here and clarify - it's a GREAT resource for information on historical varnish making as applicable primarily to musical instruments, and also in terms of materials historical available and processes utilized.  It has some application to rifles near and dear to me, i.e. Fed period Northampton/Lehigh work, but in terms of general crossover to gun making,  not so much. 

I guess a better way to put it is that it's a spectacular resource for "finish nerds."  Now that is a badge I will happily wear.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Also I should add that the author has an excellent manner of writing in an area about which he was clearly passionate.  Very similar to Rutherford Platt writing about north american trees.

[Frozen Run]

Original post corrected.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Ha!  Ok that's pretty good. 

[dogrunner]

I am continually impressed by the ability and talent of the people on this forum.

Well done on the violin.

Well said!!!

[Bob Roller]

Are all these postings about "Fiddling around ? Most of the early "Bluegrass music bands had a fiddle player but the newer and very popular ones had no need for them.I am thinking of the first modern bands,The Country Gentlemen and the later Seldom Scene.They went into venues that the older bands wouldn't touch.
Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

 My grandfather was a luthier in Austria before he immigrated here in 1912. His family was so well known there for their musical instruments that when he moved into his new digs in West Berkeley and introduced himself to others from Europe as Joseph Klier they automatically said”Oh the violin maker”. This reputation followed him until he finally had his first name, and his middle name legally reversed, and presto the violin maker was no more. He said that the finish was the secret to a violins sound, along with the thinness of the body. In all actuality Klier violins often are not chosen for an orchestra with several violins because their tone is too robust. I often think about all the unlabeled jars, and cans, that were in his garage when I was a kid.

Hungry Horse

[okawbow]

My grandfather was a luthier in Austria before he immigrated here in 1912. His family was so well known there for their musical instruments that when he moved into his new digs in West Berkeley and introduced himself to others from Europe as Joseph Klier they automatically said”Oh the violin maker”. This reputation followed him until he finally had his first name, and his middle name legally reversed, and presto the violin maker was no more. He said that the finish was the secret to a violins sound, along with the thinness of the body. In all actuality Klier violins often are not chosen for an orchestra with several violins because their tone is too robust. I often think about all the unlabeled jars, and cans, that were in his garage when I was a kid.

Hungry Horse

Interesting story; thanks!
My take on the finish as being the thing that makes a violin sound good……I often assemble and completely set up a violin to fine tune it before I put any finish on. That’s normally when it sounds the best. The finish only seems to dull the sound or make it sound less colorful.

I think the Hawken bros used a similar finish to violins. There seems to be a yellow ground coat and a friable brown varnish on top the wears off in some places.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think the Hawken bros used a similar finish to violins. There seems to be a yellow ground coat and a friable brown varnish on top the wears off in some places.

Yes!  Don Stith and I discussed the same thing.  It seems to be a very thin, very hard, darker brown varnish.  Probably a single coat.

[Hungry Horse]

The Hawken rifle finish could have been the same as used by Luthiers. It could even be the same formula as grandpa’s cans in the garage. If I’m not wrong the Hawken’s families name was spelled Haaken originally. They could have been from the same part of the world.

Hungry Horse

[wvcruffler]

Also I should add that the author has an excellent manner of writing in an area about which he was clearly passionate.  Very similar to Rutherford Platt writing about north american trees.

Yes that writer is quite entertaining. He has some fun with a fairly dry topic. It is interesting to go over the different resins they used as it was still sort of the shrinking world - copal asia and africa, gum elemi, venice turpentine, gum mastic from the mediterranean. Between this book and the big german one there's a lot to mess with!  I have only done a little with spirit varnish and am testing a couple copal based oil varnishes now. Current project should I ever get to wood finishing will be spirit varnish with dyes in it followed by an oxidized oil finish.

[rfd]

I’ve made quite a few violins and believe most of the sound that comes from Stradavari violins is due to them being over 300 years old and having been worked on and fine tuned by the best luthiers in the world. Most don’t retain the original varnish. Most have been modified and rebuilt several times. In blind sound tests; few people can tell the difference between the Stads and a really good modern made violin. Here’s one I finished this year, made from materials I harvested myself. ( except for the ebony) I use the same ground mixture and varnish on my flintlocks. Here’s one I finished this year.

As a luthier, you're spot on.  Finish can aid acoustic tone to some degree, but wood age and actually playing the instrument frequently are what's most important for both tone enhancement and its preservation.

[Waksupi]

I've made around a half dozen fiddles, a few mandolins, and some fretless banjos.
The fiddles got French rub finishes. As someone else said, it is the age, rather than the finish that determines sound quality.
If I leave mine in the case for a long time, it takes quite a bit of playing to get the tone back.
A shortcut that can help the tone of an acoustic instrument, put it on a stand by a tv or music system speaker, and let the sound waves help mellow your sound.