Author Topic: Southern Rifles that are a little different  (Read 11234 times)

eagle24

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Southern Rifles that are a little different
« on: January 30, 2010, 01:09:54 AM »
I started to ask this in one of the other southern/tennessee rifle threads, but thought it might be a little off track to any of the threads.

There are 4 rifles that really interest me and seem to be a little different to other southern rifles.  The Jos Bogle rifle, The Whale rifle, The Richard Allen rifle, and rifles by P. Wilson (one in particular).  I would love to hear some thoughts on these rifles.  There are things about all of them that make me think they might have had something in common as to what influenced the stlye and architecture.  I know the Bogle and Whale rifles were thought to have been made in Tennessee as well as P. Wilson (some of his?).  I saw one particular P. Wilson rifle at last years CLA show that I think some of the more knowledgeable folks thought was probably made in KY.

Online Tanselman

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 04:50:42 AM »
Sometimes we forget that early Tennesse rifles often differed from the later slender, racy guns we most often think of as Tennessee rifles. The earlier gunsmiths were taught elsewhere, and brought those influences to Tennessee and to the rifles they built. It wasn't until after 1800, perhaps well after 1800, that the locally grown gunsmiths began to make those slender, long barreled and captivating Tennessee rifles, often stocked in walnut, that we conjure up in our minds when we think of Tennessee. The early  Bogle rifle is a beautiful gun with great stock architecture, but if it didn't have a signed barrel, we might be attributing it to other areas than just Tennessee.  

The several Pleasant Wilson rifles I have seen from the flintlock era were made in Kentucky, and have more North Carolina influences than Tennessee. Wilson was born in 1795 in North Carolina and moved with his family to Clay County, Kentucky, between 1805 and 1810. He was 15 years old in 1810, and it was probably at that time that he was apprenticed to the gunsmith's trade. He worked in Clay County until at least 1835, perhaps longer, before moving to Ray County, Missouri with family and friends. By 1850 he was in Andrew Co., MO working as a gunsmith. His son, Philip, worked as a gunsmith with him in MO.

The strongest influences I see in the Wilson rifles are from western North Carolina, particularly the Gillespies and Robert Hughes gunsmiths. We don't know who trained Wilson, but he built long, slender rifles with racy architecture, probably more influenced by western North Carolina gunmaking than Tennessee. He used smaller side opening patchboxes, either round or octagan in shape, and for a southeastern KY gunmaker working down in the dirt poor hill county, he did limited engraving and used a good number of simple silver inlays. Most guns from that region of KY in the late flint era were plain with little to no silver work, and patchboxes were infrequently used.   Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 05:42:07 AM by Tanselman »

eagle24

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 05:20:49 AM »
Thanks Shelby.  I guess in some way I was wondering (or seeing) a SW Virginia influence in all these rifles except maybe the whale rifle.  The only one I have not seen in person is the Richard Allen rifle which I am very drawn to.  I want to place it in my top 3 of favorite southern rifles.  I did see a contemporary copy of it at the CLA show that Mark Wheland built.  Your description of Pleasant Wilson's rifles was a dead ringer for the one I have seen.  It was very slender, patchbox as you described, inlays, etc... I saw the
Bogle rifle at the CLA 2 years ago and kick myself for not looking at it more closely.  I look at it on the kentucky longrifles site about every 100 hours or so.

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 05:49:12 AM »
When you are talking about the top three southern rifles, how about: 1) the Thomas Simpson rifle with Gasper Mansker ties, 2) the William Whitley rifle by Jacob Young, and 3) the "game cock" rifle by Willey Higgins. Hard to go wrong with any one of those beauties. Shelby

eagle24

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 06:04:14 AM »
How about the Gamecock, Whale, and Richard Allen?  Those are probably my top 3 right now.  Funny, I didn't like the Gamecock rifle at all when I saw the pictures in Jerry Nobles book.  When I saw it in person, I went nuts over it.  The Jacob Young rifle is fantastic too!I know nothing about the Thomas Simpson rifle.  Where can I see pictures? 

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 05:27:59 PM »
Greg, about 4 years ago the Tennessee Valley Art Center in Tuscumbia Al had a show called " Arms through The Ages".  A really nice guy was giving a lecture about early rifles, I remember his specialty was collecting early powder horns but don't remember his name.

One of the rifles he used in his presentation was the Jacob Young rifle.

I was just pondering over what parts to buy for my first rifle and talked to him extensively before the lecture. He recommended a Chambers kit for my first build and then put the Jacob Young rifle in my hands to show me what a master gunmaker was capable of producing.

Having never seen an original before much less held one in my hands I was awestruck to say the least.

Because of his encouragement, this fine gentleman and lecturer was partially responsible for me taking the plunge and starting my first rifle.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 05:28:45 PM by Eric Krewson »

Arnie Dowd

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 06:54:47 PM »
Gentlemen -  Please don't leave out the Humbles or the Bryans or even the great Alfred Gross rifle that Louie P. has been taking care of for so many years.  Yes these are some of the best of the best when it comes to true "Southern Rifles".
Comapring them is like comparing apples and oranges as they are all pretty unique in their own right.  Shelby is correct in that all of these rifles show their "roots" or where they came from so to speak.  Having seen, handled and even been the very fortunate caretaker of 3 of them for many years inc researching and publishing two of them, what gives me the greatest satisfaction is the fact that the great rifles of the South are finally been appreciated in their own right and those of us who have always loved them are finally having the fun and satisfaction in showing those "Penn" Boys that the art (inc carving) of the American Longrifle did not stop at the Penn or even the VA border...  ;)
Thanks for listening,  Arnie

eagle24

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 07:24:47 PM »
The Jacob Young rifle(s) are definitely magnificent.  I guess I should have said Iron Mounted Southern rifles.  I don't know why, but all my interest seems to be in that direction.  The P. Wilson rifle I have seen was sort of both Iron and Brass I guess.  It had brass thimbles, nosecap, wear plate, if I remember correctly.  The trigger guard and buttplate were forged iron.

My lack of knowledge keeps me confused on these rifles.  I tend to see the Jacob Young rifles as Kentucky rifles apart from what I think of as a Southern rifle.  I know this is wrong, but when I think of Southern Rifles, I am thinking SW Va, TN, GA, & AL mostly.  Certainly also include the Iron Mounted Gillespie rifles of NC.

Oh, let me add that I do realize the Gamecock rifle is not iron mounted.  I really like the Higgins iron mounted rifle too.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 07:44:19 PM by GHall »

Offline WElliott

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 08:43:29 PM »
Gentlemen, this is a very interesting topic to me and I agree with the selections you are making.
I expect several of the rifles mentioned can be seen at this year's Tennessee-Kentucky Rifle Show, April 23-24
at the Museum of Appalachia near Knoxville.  Check the "Announcements/Show Schedules" portion of this website for more details.

Wayne
Wayne Elliott

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 11:09:32 PM »
If you have not attended this show you should make an effort to attend. Its a great show and don't forget to take time to tour the museum.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline G-Man

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 06:34:04 AM »
You guys have already hit most of my favorites, but when you start thinking about it it's hard to narrow it down.  I'll throw out a couple more - the John Bull "Charlotte Ann" rifle, and the "M.A." rifle (with the lady in the hat patchbox) that was shown in the Bivins book but Wallace has attributed to Virginia in his article on the "Step Toe Group" of rifles.   

I do have to say, that regardless of how you classify them, Jacob Young's rifles are my favorites.  The Woodfork gun is just a fantastic example of architecture and fine metal work. 

Guy

Offline WElliott

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 06:59:25 AM »
Great guns . . . .and I would add John Davidson to the list as well.  Incidentally, Joseph Bogle was in Rockbridge County, VA toward the end of the Revolution and there served in the same unit as Davidson.  There is similarity between Bogle's early Tennessee rifle and Davidson's work and I have wondered if they both trained under the same master. 
Wayne Elliott

Offline G-Man

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 04:50:47 PM »
The more you start thinking about it, the more there is...those great North Carolina rifles as well...

There is one relatively plain Davidson rifle Dr. Whisker showed in one of his books that has very similar looking triggers to the Bogle rifle- shape, spacing, spur ends etc.

Guy

eagle24

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 04:38:27 AM »
My original thread took a big turn somewhere and seems to have become a debate on which southern rifles are the greatest or favorites.  That's OK, it's all good and interesting to me.  I like that Guy referred to the Jacob Young rifles as his "favorites".  I think it's good that we can rank them however we want when it comes to what we personally like.  If I could have any original rifle I wanted, I'd take the one worth the most money, sell it, buy three or four that are my "favorites" and pocket the change.

What I really intended in this thread was to learn a little more about the 4 rifles I mentioned.  I'm new to all this (compared with some of you who have studied and admired these rifles for many years).  I see some similarities between the rifles I mentioned.  Maybe less so for the whale rifle.  I'm probably wrong in my assumptions and what I see as similarities, but all these rifles appeal to me and are a little different to the normal rifle of the same time and locale.


Offline WElliott

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 06:50:04 AM »
Greg, sorry we wandered from your query. You have a great eye.  :)  I have, at one time or another, been the caretaker of three of the four rifles you asked about -  the early Joseph Bogle rifle, the "Whale" rifle (attributed to Compton), and the Richard Allen rifle.  

Joseph Bogle (Jr.) was born in 1759 in York County, Pennsylvania, and enlisted in the Pennsylvania militia in January 1777.  Apparently the Bogles moved to Virginia in 1779 and in the fall of that year, Joseph enlisted from Augusta County, Virginia (from the south end of the county, now Rockbridge County) in Col. Boyer's regiment, the same regiment in which the great Virginia gunsmith John Davidson served.  Bogle was old enough to have served part of an apprenticeship by the time he left Pennsylvania.  Yet the rifle you refer to has such strong Virginia influence that it has been presumed by some to be made in Virginia.  It is my theory that Bogle received much of his training in Virginia and that he and John Davidson may well have spent some time in the same shop during, or right after the War.  Bogle moved to Tennessee sometime before his marriage bond in January 1786.  He made the rifle for his friend and neighbor, Capt. Robert McTeer, in what is now Blount County, Tennessee.  If you want more information on this rifle and on Bogle, see my article published in the October 2006 issue of Gun Report magazine.

The Comptons moved to middle Tennessee from South Carolina.  In my opinion, the Whale rifle is heavily influenced by the traditions of South Carolina and, perhaps Maryland where I believe the Comptons first started working. Research continues . . . .  That rifle has a number of Christian symbols including the whale patchbox, a fish on the toe plate, a tree of life on the trigger guard bow, etc.

The Richard Allen rifle was made in Jones County (Clinton Township) Georgia probably shortly after 1808 when that area was opened to white settlers.  At that time, the western boundary of Jones County was the eastern boundary of  the Creek Indian Nation  It is the earliest Georgia identified rifle, so far.  We don't yet know where Allen trained but my conjecture is in Virginia.  Many Virginians moved into upcountry Georgia at the close of the Revolution since Georgia was opening up  land grants to veterans . The rifle's architecture and furniture are very bold and dramatic. and uniquely Allen's own design but seem to me to have a Virginia influence.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 06:52:44 AM by WElliott »
Wayne Elliott

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2010, 08:41:12 AM »
I noted that Arnie Dowd included the BRYAN rifles of Kentucky in the discussion. I am fascinated by those particular rifles, and am always trying to locate additional examples to photograph and record.

Arnie, if you are still reading this thread, would you mind mentioning what Bryan rifles you have seen? I have the early "L & W Bryan" and an unsigned Daniel Bryan, plus about half of a signed William Bryan rifle (Daniel's son). The attractive "D. Bryan" (signed on a silver plate) rifle that has been shown around down in Kentucky the last couple of years is a nice gun, but might be an early restock. Have you seen other good Bryan rifles, and if so, do you recall which Bryan was the maker, etc.?

I've heard rumors of a couple of good Bryan guns still down in KY, but never get a solid lead on them. Of course, most such rumors don't pan out. There are a number of related "Lexington style" rifles that are similar to the Bryan guns, but it's the Bryan family pieces that really grab my attention.  Shelby Gallien

Offline G-Man

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 03:39:28 PM »
Shelby - do any of the rifles you mentioned include the iron mounted piece that is believed to be a Bryan rifle, discussed on here a few weeks ago?  (The one with the English style lock that was replaced?)  That looks to be a fantastic, and early, iron mounted rifle.

Guy

eagle24

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 06:59:43 PM »
Wayne, 
Does the Richard Allen rifle have a very subtle stepped wrist?  In the pictures in the ALR Virtual Library, it appears to me that it does (or at least something is going on that makes it look that way), but I can't really tell.  It almost looks like there is a slight break or change of direction in the line from the toe to the wrist.

Online Tanselman

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2010, 07:37:17 PM »
Guy,  The unsigned iron mounted rifle I have felt thought was a Bryan gun for years, either William, Sr., or early Daniel Bryan. Mel and I discussed it and both attribute it to the Bryans. It's simplicity makes us think it is an early KY piece (Daniel), even incise carving is primitive, no butt plate, etc. But it is unsigned, so we don't know for sure.

The Bryan guns I was referencing are signed rifles with Bryan names on them. I've heard of a couple that have never surfaced in the collecting circles, but hard to run down. There was an "L. Bryan" pictured in Jim Johnston's book, but I've never seen one (other than mine) at the KRA. If anyone knows of other signed Bryan rifles out there, it would be great to hear about them and see pictures. I have seen several guns made from parts of original Bryan rifles, restocked, that support my contention that many early KY guns were simply worn out or destroyed on the frontier, only to be resurrected as a parts or restocked gun. But none of them had a readable barrel. Then again, I don't think they signed all their guns, as many early guns made in KY were not signed, even those with nice work on them.  Shelby
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 07:38:42 PM by Tanselman »

Offline WElliott

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2010, 01:06:45 AM »
Greg, I don't think so . . .
Wayne Elliott

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2010, 07:42:11 AM »
  Greg,  Wayne is right in that there is no "step", what you are seeing is a slight change in contour running up into the wrist. Going forward from the front edge of the rear guard extension, the wrist is undercut more toward the trigger plate, giving that part of the wrist a more rounded lower edge.

Arnie Dowd

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2010, 07:39:54 AM »
Shelby -  Wish I could direct you toward add'l Bryan rifles but my comments were simply based on my observations of the photos I have on file (mostly Thanks to Mel) of the rifles you mention inc your L & W
Bryan as well as the D. Bryan which you suggest may be a later restock - both of which have the classic,
now recognized, Lexington School (Thanks to you), style of "captured-lid" style patchbox.  I have never been fortunate to see photos of the iron-mntd rifle you attribute to the Bryan's.  If you can post photos
I would sure appreciate it as I assume it won't be in your forthcomming book since it isn't signed.
Best Regards,  Arnie Dowd

Offline G-Man

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2010, 03:25:13 PM »
Arnie  - private message sent.

A friend of mine thought the same thing about the Richard Allen rifle when he first saw it - i.e. the stepped wrist.  But in the case of the Richard Allen gun, it does not appear to be so. 

Some of the stepped wrist southern guns have such a subtle step it is very hard to discern if it was intentional or just the inletting of the triggers that resulted in the slight change of direction - more of an illusion that is emphasized by the termination of the toeline moldings at the rear of the guard where the "step" would be. 

Guy

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Southern Rifles that are a little different
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2010, 05:43:51 PM »
Greg, Talking to Joe Bogle last night he told me he had met your mentor, the older gentleman who is such a crack shot with a flintlock( I am terrible with names).

Anyway, your friend had held the Bogle rifle and decided he had to build one. He had a barrel made with the same swamp and was forging the buttplate and trigger guard.

Joe is headed to Norris this spring this spring to see this rifle himself to study it closely in preparation for a build of his own.

Both Joe Bogle and his nephew Danny Bogle are both accomplished gun builders. I guess there might be something to the "genetic memory" theory.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 05:45:25 PM by Eric Krewson »