How much polish

[wmrike]

How much of a fine finish do you guys put on steel parts (locks, barrels, etc.) that will eventurally be artificially aged?  I normally finish with 600 wet/dry.  Too much?

[eagle24]

I'm not the best to answer since I've only built one rifle, but I'll give you my 2 cents worth.  My guess is it depends on what you mean by "artificially aged" and the look you are after.  If you want a really aged (maybe pitted) finish then you probably don't have to polish that far.  If you are after a more subtle, but cared for finish (like a slightly worn charcoal blued look), then you might need to take it to a full polished finish.  I polished this lock all the way to 400 grit before I did my aging.  I don't think it was necessary for the look I was after, but I wanted the practice.  I also did the draw filing on the barrel just as if I was going to leave it bright polished, then I rusted and pitted the heck out of it with my aging.  Some of the really great builders (in my opinion), achieve a "soft" aged look.  I suspect they fully polish then apply their finish and do some very subtle softening or aging.

[Jim Filipski]

Hate to say this but I will take mine out to 1200 or better....  just so as I can $#@* them up!
Now granted: I'm doing more European guns lately. You still need to bring them up ....before you bring them down!
If you understand what I'm saying.

If the lock was polished out bright, usually it was well done.....now if you want to add some age well you better start there and work your way down!

My apprentice asked me once why he had to make the lock so bright if we were to age it.... I said because it came out of gunsmith shop not the foundry.

Jim

[J Shingler]

I usually take mine to about 240. If you polish it to far I have found it doesn't take the brown as well. Likes those little scratches to get going. It you are going to a pit stage and back off I have done that with just a fine drawfile. No paper at all. Just a nice fine single cut new file.

Now just a guess on my part but with the tools available to the average smith for a working gun, this just might be good enough. Not saying the fine English smith but the general North American gun stocker. Time was money. For the average person walking into the shop, would they pay for all the extra hours for a tool? Just my added $.02

[wmrike]

Guys - thanks for the notes.  Quite a range here, from 240 (a good base for a professional blue job) to the 1200 (don't need no stink'n mirror).  At the heart of it I was wondering if anyone aged from the basic castings, but the unanimous opinion is that workmanship always shows through .

[rich pierce]

You can also try burnishing which was probably as common as fine grit polishing.

[wmrike]

Rich - I'm not familiar with burnishing.  Is that done over the rough, cast surface or over a filed or partially polished surface?

[keweenaw]

Even for not aged pieces I leave my barrels at draw filed only. albeit with a fine file that doesn't load and leave pin scratches. That surface's about a perfect base for either charcoal bluing or browning.  I caseharden my locks and don't polish past worn 320.  Even high end casehardening is typically done at a worn 400 finish.  Here are some photos of casehardened and charcoal blued pieces that were polished to worn 400.  I've found polishing to be much more about consistency and application than about degree of fineness.

Tom





Clearly no need for a higher polish. 

[Jim Kibler]

That's good information Tom.  I might also add that a surface polished to a very fine finish is of course not only more work, but looks inappropriate to my eye in many cases.  Often times, the highly finished "chrome" look just doesn't seem to look right.  This may be part of the modern trap in thinking that the more a surface (wood or metal) is finished the better.  Design wins over fineness of execution every time.

[rich pierce]

Rich - I'm not familiar with burnishing.  Is that done over the rough, cast surface or over a filed or partially polished surface?

The burnishing is done to a scraped surface or one polished to about 400 grit.  I have a piece of 1/4 drill rod a foot long, bent to a gentle arc, polished, hardened and tempered to straw color, with 2 rough handles on the ends, like a drawknife.  I can really bear down with it and it works better on curved surfaces than a flat burnisher.

Snyder, your work is hurting my feelings.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Good information indeed, and splendid work Tom.  I'd love to hear how you go about your charcoal bluing.  If you'd prefer, you can e-mail me at sapergia@shaw.ca    Thanks in advance.

[Daryl]

Super stuff, Tom. Thanks.

[keweenaw]

That charcoal bluing was done, at considerable expense to me, by Doug Turnbull who will not discuss how he does it.  He's the only person (firm) I know of who consistently gets that deep glossy blue characteristic of mid 19th century English work. My own charcoal bluing, on barrels, comes out considerably more matte even with the same degree of polish.

Tom

[Daryl]

Doug Turnbull's work is exemplary. Absolutely beautiful - I've seen a number of pictures- ad's in DoubleGun Journal - famous for re-colour casing and refinishing antiques or new guns alike. Wonderful stuff.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks for the reply Snyder.  Good that he doesn't post here...sounds like a getter, not a giver, in spite of his talent.

[Joey R]

Taylor, I talked to Doug Turnbull for over an hour at the NRA convention in Louisville, Ky. a few years ago. He talked in depth about anything regarding firearms but he and his staff of workers wouldn't budge on any technique questions regarding case hardening. Believe me, I tried!!

[Robby]

Turnbull's shop is about fifteen miles from me. He and they are very friendly and very willing to show you around the shop and show you examples of the guns they have done, some for very famous people, even if they know you are only there to look. On the other hand, I was at a local shoot one day and the fellow that does their bluing was asking about my gun and how I do my bluing, no secrets from me, but when I asked about his, their, methods, the conversation died real quick. Sometimes, I guess, proprietary information helps keep a business afloat.

[jwh1947]

Polish it until your wife says it looks "pretty." 

[smshea]

How much Polish? 1/4 on my mothers side but I don't talk about it much

[wmrike]

Smshea - well, it seems to have gotten the job done!

[Daryl]

You guys.

[Roger Fisher]

Taylor, I talked to Doug Turnbull for over an hour at the NRA convention in Louisville, Ky. a few years ago. He talked in depth about anything regarding firearms but he and his staff of workers wouldn't budge on any technique questions regarding case hardening. Believe me, I tried!!

I'll add something now that might get me some jabs; but I can handle it./them!  I do not know Mr Turnbull from Adam or Eve for that matter.  It was mentioned that his firm keeps their secret close to their vest.  I (seriously) would say that if I stumbled on a money making secret for my business (I stress business) that earns me the $ to stay afloat and put the bread on my table I would guard it to the best of my ability rather than put it out there so my customers present and future could do the process themselves...!  My employees would sign a binding agreement to keep the secret just that a secret!

On the other hand, if I was into this as a hobby (which I am) I would gladly share whatever knowledge and the minor skills that I have or ever will have to keep this hobby alive.  

Now then, pour it on

[keweenaw]

Turnbull is acting in the long tradition of keeping his methods to himself, which is, of course, why we've all worked so hard to figure out what the old guys were doing as no one wrote anything down and let the secrets out.  There is a story about old Japanese sword makers where achieving a perfect temper on a blade is critically important.  The story goes that one sword maker was visiting another and stuck his hand in the quench tank to judge the temperature of the water.  At that point the owner of the shop took out a sword and cut off the hand of his visitor.  Now that is keeping a trade secret!

We all know the basics of charcoal bluing and color hardening.  In the hardening the only real variables are the mix of charcoal in the pack, the temperature of the heat and the temperature and degree of aeration in the quench.  Turnbull has simply played with those variables until he got it right for his shop.  Pretty much ditto on the charcoal bluing. 

Tom

[Joey R]

Roger, That seems fair to me. When you find a great fishing hole it's best not to advertise it.I just stated that I asked and he didn't respond...fair enough.  Anyway, he answered many other questions than not. I'm just gratefull that he took the time to speak with me for his booth at the convention was busy as heck.

[Daryl]

Their business is Restoration of fine antiques and other firearms and they do an incredibly beautiful job.  If unwilling to share their secrets, fine, that's their business, but then, they or their employees should not be 'prying'/'asking' for info on other crafstmen's methods.