rattlesnake patchbox

[rebelraider]

I am starting a rifle for my 14 year old son. Can anyone tell me how early the rattlesnake patchbox dates back.

[Larry Luck]

I don't know the earliest.  I suspect Dr. Whisker would.  The Rifle Shoppe set of parts for a Virginia Manufactory rifle with rattlesnake patchbox has a lock dated 1806.
Larry Luck

[mr. no gold]

Seems to me that they were used on some VA Manufactory rifle guns, and there were a few PA gunmakers that used it on occasion. The names escape me just now. I'll look them up and post the info. As to age, they appear to be first quarter of the 1800s items. Snakes were also represented in silver inlays, rarely, but are found. Whisker shows both box and inlays in one, or two, of his books (Huntingdon County?) and a good reference on VA guns would show the snake box. Hope that you proceed with your plans for using the snake box on the little rifle and keep us informed with photos and commentary.
Best-Dick

[rebelraider]

I think that I will stick to the ideal of the rattlesnake patchbox, it is a little later than I than I wanted. But I guess the whole gun don't fit any style. I am using a .58 rifled  octagon to round barrel. It will sorta be a cross of a musket--rifle.

[California Kid]

Snake boxes are sometimes seen on Lancaster guns. Kindig ilustrates one by William Weiss, post 1800 gun I think. Woud be cool to build one to commerate the tea party movement!

[JTR]

Kid, I about choked on my coffee over that one thanks for starting my day with a laugh!

As for the rattlesnake box, yeah, go for it! It'll look good!

And wasn't there a Rev War period gun with a snake box, and the words'Don't tread on me'? Or was that the Virginia Manufactory rifles?

I once had a powder horn with a rattlesnake scrimmed on it, cut into 13 segments,,, food for thought.

John 

[Dphariss]

Considering the number of Rev-War items with rattlesnakes and "don't tread on me". I can't see where a rattlesnake patchbox would be inconceivable for a 1770s-80s gun most of the guns we make are fantasy guns anyway to some extent. But remember the ART FORMS of 1770 were different than 1800 for the most part.
The motif was certainly there by 1775 or so.
The exact design is the question. The only one I have seen photos of is the Weiss rifle in Kindig pg 129. It is unlikely it is older than 1800 and more likely its 1810-20
So proof of use of similar boxes 30 years before is supposition right now.
The copy of Kindig I have has the notations by Shumway and he adds to Kindig's comments by pointing out the Weiss likely made the snake boxes for the VA Manufactory guns since prior to his employment (1804-1807) none of the guns had patchboxes.
 Kindig  lists him as being in Lancaster starting in 1802 ending 1821.

Here is a related question.
When did the use of images, busts of people, animal heads etc come into use on American rifles?
The ones I see is a quick look at Kindig also appear to be later guns.
But I am supposed to be out in the shop so I gotta  leave with that question.
Dan

[mr. no gold]

Dan-You are absolutely correct on the considerable age of the use of animals and mythic figures for gun art. The best example that can be called to mind here is the Christian Oerter
1776 rifle with the fabulous griffin on the cheekrest side. Far as I know, this is the earliest dated such gun. The lion and the dragon were also used around the same time. 
A bit later, Nicholas Beyer made a celebrated rifle with an evil looking bird carved on it. And, John Gonter made a rifle with what appears to be writhing snakes carved on the backside. It was recently shown on AspenShadeLtd.com, and was for sale. Still and all, these pieces are great rarities given the vast number of rifles that were made.
So, carving or patchbox, neither are fanciful, but are grounded in solid examples of some pretty fine old rifles.
Dick

[TPH]

Several 1st Model Virginia Manufactory Rifles with snake patchboxes can be seen in the collection of the Virginia Historical Society. They can be viewed here:

http://vhs3.vahistorical.org/star/x.starmarc.html

You will have to search "Virginia Manufactory Rifle"

[Mel Hankla]

There is a celebrated George Schroyer rifle with a Rattlesnake motif patchbox. It is # 8 in George Shumways book, George Schroyer Sr. & Jr. Gunsmiths of Hanover and also featured in several other rifle books.  I'll be glad to send good detailed color shots of this piece to anyone that request them.
Or...if someone can coach me how to post them, will be glad to post photo here.

[rebelraider]

There is a celebrated George Schroyer rifle with a Rattlesnake motif patchbox. It is # 8 in George Shumways book, George Schroyer Sr. & Jr. Gunsmiths of Hanover and also featured in several other rifle books.  I'll be glad to send good detailed color shots of this piece to anyone that request them.
Or...if someone can coach me how to post them, will be glad to post photo here.

I had forgotten about that one, just went and found it. I would like a color detail of the patchbox, if its not to much trouble.   Thanks

[Gary Tucker]

Mel,
Welcome to this site.  I know you will be an asset to us all.  It is a wonderful site, as is yours.

[Dennis Glazener]

There is a celebrated George Schroyer rifle with a Rattlesnake motif patchbox. It is # 8 in George Shumways book, George Schroyer Sr. & Jr. Gunsmiths of Hanover and also featured in several other rifle books.  I'll be glad to send good detailed color shots of this piece to anyone that request them.
Or...if someone can coach me how to post them, will be glad to post photo here.

Mel,
Here is a link to a tutorial that Acer posted awhile back:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0
Dennis