Gun I.D. please help

[hillbilly]

According to family legend this gun originally belonged to my GGG Grandfather (or possibly his father). Either way it's been in the family for a very long time. The story goes that it was originally a flintlock but was converted over soon after the percussion became popular. Unfortunately it's in rough shape, but I was able to read part of a name stamped in to the lock plate.  I could make out   _ AST _BRY ? I'm not 100% confident about the T (could be an A) or the Y.  Under that are the initials SDR or SDD.  My Nephew who's eyes are better than mine says he made could make out _ASAT_ BRY. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also included is a photo of the original powder horn and .38 cal. bullet mold that go with it. I have a few more photos of the hardware if needed.

[smylee grouch]

My first impresion was a Phild. school gun but maybe the wrist is too short, second thought is western Pa.    Gary

[hillbilly]

My family has been in Somerset County since the 1790's ( some as far back as the 1760's). I first assumed that it was some variation of a bedford, but it may have been brought from out east. The conversion to percussion was supposed to have been done by one of the Dunmeyers.

[hillbilly]

The original owner came from Montgomery Co. Pa. Would it match up to any of the gun makers there?

[hillbilly]

I didn't find any markings other than the engraving and partial name on the lock plate

[flintriflesmith]

When I enlarged the picture of the lock it looked like the original engraved border went completely around the front of the plate and even under where the frizzen would have been. This makes me doubt that the lock was ever a flintlock. You can check by removing the lock and looking for evidence of the frizzen screw and frizzen spring screw on the inside.

Gary

[mr. no gold]

You're right Gary; that detail makes it far, far less likely that the gun was ever flint. The patch box is suspiciously like the one on a J. Mier rifle up on my wall. My gun is signed and is a Somerset County rifle. Come to think of it, the side plate is much the same.
It wouldn't surprise me if the gun is a S'set made guns since the family of ownership lives there today. This would most likely be a gun made somewhat past 1850, then.
I'll see if I can't get some photographs together to post so that comparisons can be made.
Dick 

[hillbilly]

My dad has the gun. I'll take a closer look at the lock next time I get there. Would anybody know who the partial name might match up to?

[hillbilly]

I just looked up some photos of a Jacob mier gun in "Gunsmiths of Bedford, Fulton, Huntingdon, and Somerset Counties" turns out that the sideplate and patchbox are about identical. There appears to be a date below the name on the lock plate but it's hard to make out.

[mr. no gold]

Dates on lock plates are seldom seen. Not sure why, but the old gun makers and locksmiths never found it desirable to date their work, with some notable exceptions, (Oerter, and Schreit come to mind here). I have only two KY rifles, an Ohio gun, that is dated, (1850), and an NC rifle that has a date of April, 1819; (that is two out of 50 and I haven't seen more that on scores of other pieces owned by other people). You will tend to see far more signatures on pieces than dates, and nearly always on the barrel flat.
A date isn't an impossibility, but it is more likely that you will fine something like " & Co." or "Bros" or other indication. Please let us know what you do find as it will be an interesting item of information for all the rest of us.
You are fortunate to have a nice original local gun that has family history. Thank you for displaying it! Don't do too much to it; looks darn good as it stands.
Best-Dick

[hillbilly]

Mr. no gold, does your J. Mier gun have any similar markings on the lockplate? Just wondering. It appears to be numbers of some sort.

[mr. no gold]

There seems to have been a maker's name, (or hardware store, perhaps), but it has been worn away and is not legible, anymore. The rifle is signed clearly J. Mier, in script,  on the top flat. It has raised and incised carving on the stock, but no inlays. The gun turned up in an old family located in Rocky Ford, Colorado and is presumed to be a Santa Fe Trail gun as that town was an important river crossing point. The piece is very stout and would wear well.
Can't tell, but does the patch box on your rifle have any engraving? The one on my gun has some, of no particular design.
Dick

[hillbilly]

The only engraving that I could see is on the lock plate. I never found any on the barrel flat, but I'll take another look the next time I get to my Dad's.

[mr. no gold]

The engraving on the lockplate was most likely done by the lock maker. There was a muititude of makers, mostly in England, in the mid to late periods and nearly all of their work came with some engarving. Contrast this with the Germanic lock which never has such ornamentation. The early Ketland locks have limited engraving if any, too.
Starting about 1800 to 1810, English locks got fancy, probably in a bid to get a bigger share of the market as the trade with the US increased.
Dick

[Whitedog]

When I enlarged the picture of the lock it looked like the original engraved border went completely around the front of the plate and even under where the frizzen would have been. This makes me doubt that the lock was ever a flintlock. You can check by removing the lock and looking for evidence of the frizzen screw and frizzen spring screw on the inside.

Gary

Gary, there might be some exceptions about this, but I'm not personaly aware of any.  Original flintlocks seem to allways be held onto the rifle with two retaining screws, not one.  Percussion rifles seem to allways have one screw.  Again, there might be exceptions, but that is a good rule to go by that seems to hold fast.

[WElliott]

There certainly are exceptions to the two lock bolt concept.  A significant percentage of original flintlock Southern rifles had just one lock bolt.  And not just on late flint rifles, but on some fairly early ones as well.