Time for Carving and Engraving?

[northmn]

After viewing a several rifles throughout my time on this site that are very artistic, very elaborate and very grand I was wondering what the percentage of time building the whole rifle is spent on going above and beyond just making it a plain shooter.  I used to tell people that I swore additions like the brass patchbox, decorative inlays and carving took about as much time as building the gun (I build from blanks)  Never really timed it and some may have been impatient, but it does take time.  Builders that come to mind are Taylor S., B. Shipman and M Brooks and Acer that build very nice rifles and fowlers. Please understand these names are what just came to me off the cuff, I did not mean to leave anyone out.  What is the cost, just on time for additions such as engraved parts, carving etc??  I know it depends on how much, but try to kind of break it down.   It is very time consuming I know.  I have a project now that I could make into a plain shooter in no time but plan on making a little nicer, luckily its one that I really do not have an immediate need for.  I want to add a little carving and a wood patchbox as I am very challenged on engraving.  I know its going to take time.

DP 

[rich pierce]

I'm not a maker of highly decorated rifles, but I aspire to be, when I have more time to get a few more builds under my belt.  I've seen great makers at work and they vary in their speed quite a bit.  Those who do it for a living get pretty quick and efficient, but any new design takes time to develop and execute.

Some builds take longer than others just to finish the basic rifle; as you mentioned, starting from a blank, etc, and then there are parts you could make, whether you had the bbl channel inlet, RR groove done and hole drilled, etc.  So building the basic rifle can be done quickly by an experienced hand, and once a guy is good at carving or engraving, some work can be done pretty quickly.  Other carving that is more complex, has more layers, etc can be challenging, and if you don't carve or engrave often, it is laborious and  kinda nerve-wracking.

If I was up to speed, having recently carved another rifle with a similar, relatively simple design, I could probably do the carving and moldings on an entire rifle in 12-18 hours, but it would also add some time to my finishing.  That includes lock moldings, toe molding, forend molding, some tang carving, carving fore and aft of the cheekpiece, and some squiggles around the entry thimble.  When all the tools are sharp and I feel I am practiced up, I can do the carving behind a cheekpiece in 2 hours for example.

If I had to develop a new design, draw it, mess with it on the stock, maybe do a practice block or two of some details, and it was complex, maybe it could take twice that long.

Engraving is super-challenging for me because I've not spent the time on it that is needed.  So i could putz around for 20 hours and not get much done.

Plain guns are no treat to build as any small flaw or lack of flow, etc stands out like a sore thumb.  So in ways they take a lot of time to shape and finish too.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I am flattered and honoured to have my name used in the same sentence as Bill, Mike, and Thomas.  I have considered your question for years, and have come up with a kind of formula.  If it takes a builder x amount of time to build a plain rifle, it will require a MINIMUM of 2x to build one with a hand made patchbox, carving and engraving.  The multiple will depend greatly upon the builder's skill and especially their experience.  As well, it depends on the purpose for the build.  If you are building it for yourself, as opposed to building for a client, you may lavish the process with as much time as you wish, and enjoy the ride.  If time is money, well, that's a different thing altogether.  In truth though, my own experience has taught me that as one becomes familiar with the various aspects of building, the time required is greatly diminished.  For one thing, much less time is needed for the consideration prior to diving in.  There is not the need to contemplate as much, nor to languish in a particular perceived problem.  Another thing that changes the time required for a build is the time lapse between builds.  When you are lathered up from a build, and are able to start the next immediately, you will move along at a good pace.  But if you have to wait until this time next year to start another one, you may find that some of the flow will be lost, and will need refreshing.  And that's ok.  Another analogy I like to use, is that of making love.  The first one finished is not necessarily the winner.

[Mike Brooks]

Since I'm mentioned I'll respond. I'm probably much faster than most folks on this board. I've built lots of guns and the experience has made me very fast. I don't consider any of my guns high art by any means, not even my more decorated guns. My engraving and carving doesn't compare to many of the good builders on this board.
 I can build a plain undecorated rifle or fowler in about 25 to 30 hours. My decorated guns take as much as 80 hours. Anymore than 80 hours and I've pretty well lost interest in the project. I figure my labor at a set dollar per hour rate and charge accordingly. The tough part can be knowing how long the gun will take to build....especially if I get inspired and add more decoration than I first intended.

[northmn]

I hope I did not make the post sound exclusive, but I am getting an idea on how much time is spent on these activities.

DP

[rich pierce]

You can't shut me up short of a 2x4 upside the head, so don't worry!   

[Acer Saccharum]

I am thinking it really depends on what kind of carving and engraving you're talking. High art stuff takes forever, for example, in my jaeger, which STILL is not finished yet, I must have 500 hrs. ( http://thoscurran.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/dsc_8672.jpg ) On the other hand, the Faire gonne, which is a folk art kind of carving job carved in seemingly a day, maybe two. (http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Faire%20Gonne/?action=view&current=796eeb1e.pbw )

As Mike says, experience makes for speed. And 500hrs is a ridiculous amount of time to spend on something. I have no idea how much primetime TV I've missed out on.

And, lastly, as Taylor says, I am flattered and proud to be thrown in the same bucket as Mike, Bill and Taylor.

[northmn]

Missing out on primetime TV is no big loss as I have not bothered with it for some time.  I was more intereseted in the proportion, because as stated some of us work faster than others.  Like stated, one sees many creations on this forum and I just mentioned those names as examples.   There have been others that have done some impressive work.  A well engraved carved longrifle is to me artistic.  I am about done with a utility gun, a poor boy, whcih filles out certain needs and can now start trying to develop my style along other lines.  Once you get something to shoot, you can start building for personal satisfaction.

DP

[Mike Brooks]

Once you get something to shoot, you can start building for personal satisfaction.

Well dang, I've been trying to build something to shoot since 1996!

[b bogart]

Well Mike I bet you have built something(s) to shoot. Just that others are shooting them, right?

[Pete G.]

Missing prime time TV is like missing a toothache.

[smylee grouch]

Prime time TV is about as entertaining as nasal hair.  That said I can relate to your position as I cant find the time to devote to a classy gun as I need so much prep time every time I start to work on one, so I hope to be able to do so when I retire. Until then its about 250 hrs. for a plane jane gun on average for me. Yes I am slow, I even day dream longrifles when I work on them. I'm hoplessly hooked.      Flintlocks Forever     Gary

[Long John]

Being a hobby builder and yet to achieve journeyman status at Dixon's, I find I spend more time trying to decide what to carve, i.e. designing the carving, than I do executing the carving.  The same goes for the engraving.  Designing the pattern takes most of the time.  While my engraving is still "primative" at best it takes me more time drawing, erasing, drawing again than it does to actually cut the lines.  I think that if I were building a rifle just like tha last one then all that time devoted to design would be reduced to time devoted to refining an existing design.  Taylor's observation about time between builds is also quite relevant.  It takes me a long time to finish a rifle just because I travel a lot and the TSA frowns upon me taking gun parts to work on at night in my carry-on.  So I often find myself asking "OK, just how did I do this on the last gun?"

Best Regards,

JMC

[Roger Fisher]

Ol Taylor and Long John hit the nail squarely with the statement about a (long) pause 'tween' finishing one and starting another screwing up your mind set is so true....  I build in late fall winter and early spring only and it takes me from fall to spring to finish one. And I refer to plain Jane shooters.   When I get into the building mood I have to study the books again and again to line up the beginning process in my ol grey head.  It's like "Jeez what do I do next"  My ability is limited (very).  Acer's Jaeger project is truly something although we'll all be senior citizens til he gets her finished
(I do wonder if he will tie a bag over that front sight to catch the thing when he sights her in

Barbara always said that I'm not very mechanicely sp inclined  And some builds come straight from $#*!.  I'm on one such since Oct.  

[Mike Brooks]

I got to take the month of march off in 2009...kinda like riding a bike for me, just jumped back on and away I went again. Although I must say, the month off was nice.