Author Topic: Another Lock Question  (Read 9564 times)

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Another Lock Question
« on: April 14, 2010, 05:24:58 AM »
 Recently Someone had a thread on polishing they're lock. Is this a common practice? I really like the Flat Mat Finish on my L&R Classic. Like I have stated I am not following any particular period or builder.

   Also,  Do you have to use two lock bolts to secure the lock?  This has a Very hefty piece of steel to tap, And I really don't have ANY margin for error trying to tap a front bolt.  If I need two is it O.K. to bring the front bolt in directly behind the mainspring?  Sorta stop flush to the outer surface of the lockplate.

   I haven't even started to inlet the lock,  But then I like to start a job with the end result in Mind.


               Rich

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 08:41:08 AM »
Rich,

You receive the lock as cast and glass beaded.   That is not finished.   You need to file and polish the lock.   Locks would have been highly polished originally in order to prevent rust.  They would have then either been left bright or case hardened.  I spend at least 8 hours filing, polishing, and tuning my locks.   That does not include engraving. 

Make sure that you file the parts while held in a vise.   A small hand vise might be necessary for small parts.   You will need some good needle files and I highly recommend the 6", #2 warding files that Brownells sells.   I finish up just about everything with these.   I always have two on my bench, one for brass and one steel.    You need to keep your files separate and only use the newest and sharpest on the wood and brass.   Save the duller files for steel.  Never use a file used for wood or brass on steel.   You will ruin it for the softer material.

Also clean your files often just like you sharpen your chisels often.   If you files are clogged they won't cut well.  Use a brass or bronze brush to clean the courser cuts.  For the fine files,  use a scrap piece of brass sheet to clean them.   Run the edge of the brass sheet across the file parallel to the teeth so the the file cuts matching channels in the brass.  This will act like a very fine brush to clean out the teeth.    You have to run the brass across the file several times to cut the grooves to full depth.  Of course, you need to line up the teeth and grooves in the brass with each pass.   You feel this more than see it.

As to the front screw,  almost all flintlocks had a front screw.  Sometimes it was smaller than the rear screw.   I use a 10-32 for the rear screw and an 8-32 for the front screw.   A 8-32 is usually just small enough to go though the web between the barrel channel and the ramrod hole.   This is going to constrain where you need to place the front of the lock.  The screw should go in the middle of the plate just forward of the mainspring.   Both the screws will have to be cutoff and filed flush with the plate when the assembly is complete.   Actually, you are going to be cutting them back little by little as you inlet the lock.   It is a good idea to drill the stock for the screw holes and drill and tap the lock plate as soon as you get the plate into the stock.   This will allow you to use the screws to knock the lock out during the remaining inletting to prevent rounding off the edges of the lock mortice by rocking the lock out by the cock.   

As to the problem of placing the front lock bolt so that it does not impinge into the ramrod hole, there are two tricks.   The first is to taper the ramrod.   It should be thinner at the end then goes in the ramrod hole than at the muzzle.    That also means that the thimbles are graduated with the front one the largest in diameter and the rear entry pipe the smallest in diameter.   I taper by ramrods from 3/8" at the front thimble to 5/16" at the breech.   This gives you a little more wiggle room in case the front lock bolt goes into the ramrod hole. 

The second trick is to intentionally run the front lock bolt into the barrel channel to avoid going into the ramrod hole.   It doesn't generally hurt to file a notch in the bottom of the barrel near the breech in order to accommodate the front lock bolt.   You see this on originals and I have done it many times.   As to originals, it is not unusual to see the ramrod hole break into the barrel channel at the breech.   Also,  along those same lines, the inlet for the mainspring usually breaks into the barrel channel.   It is not unusual to have to file a little off the mainspring for it to fit up against the barrel.   

In case you haven't gathered,  it is not as important, at least in the 18th century in America, what it looks like on the inside.   It is the part that you will see that is important as long as everything is structurally sound. 

I hope all this helps.

Mark E.


LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 12:22:02 PM »
 

   You've helped imensely, Thanks mark  I'm not so apprehensive about drilling me holes now.


           Rich

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2266
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 04:18:02 PM »
On my first build I drilled the front lock bolt hole two times. The first time I was slightly in the barrel channel, about .010, so I slightly notched the barrel.

The problem was, I had somehow drilled the hole from the side plate to the lock plate at a sideways slant so the head of my bolt was cocked on one side when it was tightened to the side plate instead of sitting flat.

This bugged me to no end so I took my lock plate to a friend and had him tig weld the front hole closed so I could drill a new hole.

I drilled another hole, my bit skated a little and I had another not quite square hole but acceptable.

I put everything together and found I was slightly in my ramrod hole with my front lock bolt so I notched my front lock bolt.

This was fine except when I would have a senior moment and start to remove my front lock bolt before I removed my ramrod. Doing so would cut a little notch out of my ramrod.

My solution was to wasp waist my bolt so I can't ding my ramrod again. I also don't have to have an index mark on my lock bolt.
 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 04:23:55 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 10:42:55 PM »
Rich,

If you have ANY question about what you need to do, please ask FIRST.    My explanations are not comprehensive by any stretch of the imagination.  Please consider all the responses you get in addition to your reading to make sure you have as good an understanding of what needs to be done as possible.  

Inletting locks and drilling for the bolt holes is difficult.   There is one thing I didn't tell you about how I drill my lock bolt holes.    Once I have the lock plate in the stock, I locate the position of the lock bolt holes inside the lock mortise.   The rear bolt should be centered on the bolster inlet (assuming you have a nice tight inlet that accurately corresponds to the actual lock bolster) just behind the breech plug lug so that it will clear the lug.   The front lock bolt should be centered on the wood in the lock mortise in front of the mainspring so that it clears the ramrod groove.   Move the front bolt off center if you must to clear the ramrod hole.  

Once you have located the bolt hole locations on the inside of the lock mortise, center punch those locations.   Now, drill a hole through the stock from the inside of the lock mortise with the TAP DRILL.   This way, you are certain that the bolts are in the correct location and you are ready to use the holes in the stock as guides to drill and tap the holes in the lock plate.   If your stock is still reasonably square on both sides, a drill press is the best way to drill the holes through the stock.   When you finish your lock panels they will slant in following the taper of the barrel.   Because of this,  the lock bolts will never be perfectly perpendicular to the lock panels.   That is why I counterbore my side plate.  It hides the fact that the lock bolt heads don't pull up flush with the plate.  

Anyway,  once the holes are drilled through the stock,  you reinstall you lock, sans the cock and frizzen spring, and clamp it in the stock.  Now you are going to use the holes you just drilled in the stock to drill the tap holes in the lock plate.   Just drill from the side plate side with the appropriate tap drill through the lock plate.   Now you are going to tap those holes using the lock bolt holes through the stock as a guide.   Before you do that, though, you need to remove the lock and redrill the holes through the stock with the clearance drill so that the taps will go in easily.   Once that is done,  reinstall the lock and tap the holes in the lockplate using the bolt holes through the stock.   You may be only able to get the holes started before your tap wrench hits up against the stock.  In that case, just remove the lock to finish tapping the holes.  

This is the most fool proof method I know for drilling lock bolt holes.   You will reverse this process for locating and drilling the side plate holes.   Only, in that case, you drill the rear lock bolt hole in the side plate blank,  put a bolt though that hole into the stock to set that location, clamp the side plate blank to the stock covering the front bolt hole and then drill that hole through the side plate bank from the inside of the lock mortise.   Once you have the holes drilled in the correct location in the side plate blank, you can finish filing it to shape.

I hope this makes things a bit clearer for  you.

Don't forget to look at the tutorials and check the archives before you start a task to see if there is any additional help or advice available.

Mark E.
 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 10:48:04 PM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Bill of the 45th

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Gaylord, Michigan
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 12:38:17 AM »
Everything Mark said is right on.  And to merge this with the lock inletting post, while you can inlet without disassembling, I prefer to take mine apart, so that I can do the polishing, and drilling of the lock screw holes. this allows me to drill them square, and undersized from the front which gives me the proper location for the lock plate, and if I need to make a side plate to fit I know up front.  This saves me  a lot of expletives, and words my grand kids, and the neighbor who is a Minister shouldn't hear. :o  And I only have to disassemble the lock once.  I store my parts in a tupperware sandwich dish with a lid, and use a 2" piece of two sided tape to hold the fly, and small parts.  Don't use a magnet to do this.  Don't ask how I know, but thank goodness I know how to degauss.  My first disassembly dish had one of those pieces of rubberized magnet in it.  Well thought out bad idea. ::)

Bill
Bill Knapp
Over the Hill, What Hill, and when did I go over it?

ken

  • Guest
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 02:28:51 AM »
I have built a few rifles an have never polished the out side of the lock. I just knock it down wit some emery cloth. I like the way it browns up that way and how it looks. It is your choice!!

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 04:51:39 AM »
Browning is fine for some 19th century guns, but an 18th century lock should be polished before being case hardened or aged.   

Mark E.


Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19511
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2010, 06:20:56 PM »
As to the question regarding one or two lock bolts. If you are building a southern mountain rifle, I would not hesitate to use a single lock bolt. I have but many of them that was without any problems at all. I normally use a 8 X 32 bolt.

It just depends on the type rifle you build.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2010, 05:45:19 PM »
Mr. Elliot, Gentlemen.

   Wow,  There's alot more to this Than I Ever Imagined.  I can see why so many people have quit trying they'er fisrt build.  Wow it can be Overwhelming whe you find out exactly what is envolved.  I can't thank you all enough for taking the time to explain the process.  Time seems like a commodity to me.  That's why it is taking what seems like forever to go from one step to another.  But I also want to have a full understanding of what needs to be done before I do this.  I don't like to back up.  And I HATE Do-overs( which I am having to do now)  Still slightly Overwelmed but not out. WOW!!! :o


             Rich

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2010, 05:49:44 PM »
As to the question regarding one or two lock bolts. If you are building a southern mountain rifle, I would not hesitate to use a single lock bolt. I have but many of them that was without any problems at all. I normally use a 8 X 32 bolt.

It just depends on the type rifle you build.
Dennis

Sure that one bolt works; but it's good to have the inletting carefully done so the lock doesn't 'rock' or be sure the rocklock doesn't rock or whatever ;D

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2010, 05:59:39 PM »
  I understand completely :D


             Rich

Offline Bill of the 45th

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Gaylord, Michigan
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 11:23:44 PM »
Say that ten time real fast.  "I don't want my rocklock lock to rock" ;D ;D ;D

Bill
Bill Knapp
Over the Hill, What Hill, and when did I go over it?

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 01:24:22 AM »
Say that ten time real fast.  "I don't want my rocklock lock to rock" ;D ;D ;D

Bill
Or to lock either!! ;D

Offline Nate McKenzie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Luzerne Co. PA
    • Nathan McKenzie Gunmaker
Re: Another Lock Question
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2010, 04:24:07 AM »
Remember there are some good books and videos available. These are being discussed on another post.