When???

[Evil Monkey]

OK, so I was reading the thread about Hawken rifles and there was a post that really caught my attention. In part, it said " they produced guns from 1822 to the late 1850s..........  Remember they started production well after the introduction of the percussion system." So, I got to wondering, what period do people consider to be the beginning of the percussion era?. Techically speaking, I suppose that it would be from the patent date but in practical terms, to my way of thinking, the percussion era would be when percussion guns started to out number flint guns in production and it always seemed to me that that would have been around the late 1820's. Anyone else have thoughts on this?.   

[rich pierce]

Well, there are guns and then there are guns.  Higher end guns will often have all the latest developments, and cheapest guns will have older technology.  The flintlock was used into the 1850's on cheap trade smoothbores around the globe.  In contrast trade rifles (a step below the Hawkens of later years) were offered in percussion by the mid 1830's at least.

Jacob Hawken undoubtedly made some flintlock rifles, and J&S also.  How many and how much they resembled the later plains rifles, we don't know.  Most now accept that Hawken rifles were always in the minority and very few of them were flintlocks, so if you put it all together, a flint Hawken was a rare item indeed, at any time or place.  The role of the Hawken rifle and the number of flintlocks made and what they looked like has been discussed on this forum and many others and around countless campfires and around pot-bellied stoves over the years.

But back to when the percussion system became dominant on new production guns- guess we'd have to dig out records from the American Fur Company, the Henry and Tryon factories, etc to get a good sense of that.  I am pretty sure that on high end riflesand shotguns for the eastern trade, the percussion system was dominant by 1830.

Of course there is a lot of allure to the idea of being a free-trapping mountain man in 1820-1835 or so, carrying a flintlock Hawken rifle.  Back in the late 1970's to early 1980's, everybody wanted one, fueled by Baird's books extolling the Hawken rifle as "the mountain man's choice".  Those were shinin' times.

[sz]

Let's look at the statement first
"Remember they started production well after the introduction of the percussion system."
Point #1;  We need to define "they"  If this means Jack and Sam, so be it.  However the Hawken Shop of St Lewis was opened by Jake in 1814, not 1822.  Now, even looking at the eastern seaboard, we won't fine many caplocks being made in that time, let alone in St Lewis
It's not a logical idea that the whole rifle industry changed "over night" because the cap lock became available.  Look at gun development in our time.  Does everyone use plastic stocks and plastic frames on their rifles and pistols just because they were developed?
Did everyone just stop making bolt actions when semi-auto hunting rifles came out?
Or is there a large segment of the shooting/hunting population that is 100% satisfied with their bolt, lever and single shot rifles and steel framed pistols and revolvers?
I would bet that most of the rifles made by J&S were caplocks after 1825, but what about the first 11 years of the shop's business?
As a fulltime gunmaker working all by myself,  I could produce at least 1 gun a month.
So lets assume that Jake was working for even 6 years before Sam came to work with him and he's making 1 gun a month.
12X6=72 guns, most of which (and maybe all of which) were flinters.
Now, that's not very many in comparison to the number of caplock rifles made by J&S and later by Sam after Jake died, and after Sam hired a lot of help  (as I recall, he had 22 men working for him in 1845)

We also look at the way those first rifles were used.  It's likely that they were used hard and in places that would not likely "bring them back home"

It’s not possible to “prove the non-existence” of Flint St Lewis Hawkens, because of the fact that they were used up and lost, and they probably didn’t make many in comparison to the cap-lock rifles, but logic and common sense would have to lead us to the conclusion that some were made,
Heck, he was making something in the years between 1814 and 1825.....

[Dphariss]

Lots of people were making flint guns, good quality ones, after 1820 or even 1830. Fordney comes to mind.
The percussion system was NOT fully reliable until probably 1825-30. It was not fully TRUSTED till the 1830s-40s at least. The percussion is more reliable than flint *now* with our manufacturing tolerances but circa 1830 I am not so sure this is the case. Ignition was faster and its easier to shoot a percussion rifle. But reliability would have been close.

This is for AMERICA. In England the shotgun converted to percussion very rapidly. But they were WING shooters and they were in a fully civilized and populated countryside. The percussion shotgun is FAR superior to flint for shooting flying birds. According to George "English Guns & Rifles" the flintlock hung on longer with riflemen even in England.
Then we have the lack of percussion caps in fur company inventories as previously pointed out (this likely needs more research).
Then we have the various rifles ordered by the fur companies till 1840 at least, American Fur etc. flintlocks.
The worlds militarys did not adopt the percussion system until the 1840s.
The 1837 inventory noted in the previous thread on this subject show 10 of the 19 rifles as Hawkens and NO percussion caps. Who was using these rifles if they were percussion locks? Where did they get their caps??? Why so many Hawken rifles if they were so rare?
Yes the percussion system was in the west by 1830 but it certainly was not universal. I have a hard time believing that Jake and Sam would have refused to make a flint rifle for someone in a 1835. I understand they were still buying flintlock locks in the 1850s.
The natives hung on to flint ignition till breechloaders were common.
People did not rush to get their flint guns converted. In the far west the firearm was too important to survival to trust a radical departure from a trusted technology.
But there are journal entries of people having there guns "percussed" at frontier posts circa 1830s.
So caps were apparently available.
The caps in inventory thing needs more research.
Frankly I just can't see an 1837 inventory with no perc caps but they are not listed. Unless very few percussion guns were in use in the west at that time.
Dan

[gibster]

It's always been my understanding that the change over was made sometime in the late 1820's and early 1830's.  I agree that there were still flinters being  made into the 1850's.  I saw a nice flinter a few years ago that was dated 1850.  This was well into the percussion period.  I think that in the wast that the flinter would have hung on longer since the availability of caps was something that probably couldn't be found when in the shining mountains, except maybe at rendezvous.  I've read (can't remember where) that it was easier to "pick up a rock" and get your rifle back to shooting than it was to find caps.  And why fix something that ain't broke?  The flintlock was something that they know and trusted. 
Just my thoughts.
Gibster

[Mike R]

The earliest references of caplocks in use "back east" that I personally have seen is ca.1825.  The earliest "out west" is ca. 1830.  Records show that by 1831 merchants in St Louis, Mo were advertizing having over 2 million percussion caps on hand for sale, which is an indication that the percussion lock was pretty far along to being accepted by then for westerners.  As has been said, flinters continued to be used and even manufactured well into the late 19th cent [and are still being made of course].  It appears that flintlock rifles were in widespread use in the Ozarks until at least the Civil War, when alot of guns were converted to caplock.  Caplocks were in use in southern highlands as late as my own youth, although the cartridge guns had made great inroads by then.

[Dphariss]

The earliest references of caplocks in use "back east" that I personally have seen is ca.1825.  The earliest "out west" is ca. 1830.  Records show that by 1831 merchants in St Louis, Mo were advertizing having over 2 million percussion caps on hand for sale, which is an indication that the percussion lock was pretty far along to being accepted by then for westerners.  As has been said, flinters continued to be used and even manufactured well into the late 19th cent [and are still being made of course].  It appears that flintlock rifles were in widespread use in the Ozarks until at least the Civil War, when alot of guns were converted to caplock.  Caplocks were in use in southern highlands as late as my own youth, although the cartridge guns had made great inroads by then.

This is why finding no caps in the inventory of goods taken to the 1837 Rendezvous is curious. Its not surprising to me, but one would think with 10 Hawken rifles in the goods that there would be percussion caps taken out as well if the rifles were percussion.

Dan

[Clark Badgett]

The absence of caps in the inventory of that rendezvous can easily be explained. Mountain men lived far from civilization, and while caplocks had their advantages, when they are gone they can not easily be self made. Flint on the other hand was somewhat common and available from nature. So to them flints would be the logical choice if they were limited to weight and chose powder and ball over over many percussion caps.

You saw the same thing in the first decade after cartridges came into prominence. Those in more isolated areas prefered the cap and ball guns because ball, powder and caps were more readily available than cartridges. Not to mention cheaper.

[ironwolf]

  I still don't trust a caplock and I really don't think they'll ever catch on.

[rich pierce]

As I posted in the other thread on flintlock Hawkens, last night I went back and re-read the books and articles I had on trade rifles and flint trade rifles were made through the 1850's.  Some percussion trade rifles were offered in the 1830's but the "Wheeler", "Lancaster", "English Scroll Guard" and others were flint and made through the 1830's and in some cases later (new scroll guard).  So flint rifles were being offered in the west quite late.