Rifles, Shotguns and Squirrels

[northmn]

Roundball mentioned how he was drooling thinking about a 28 ga S/S for a squirrel gun.  Have always considered the squirrel a rifleman's target and shotgun use to be sacrilegious.  However now that the eyes are getting a little less sharp maybe the 20 bore smooth rifle I am working on will find a previously un-thought of use.  In my region squirrels are not hunted much and while wary they are not wild, probably where hunted a bit they can become a little spooky.  When reading up on hunting them one source of wisdom stated that were he to have one squirrel gun it would be a single shot 20 bore with a full choke as he could "edge" the pattern to get them in the head up close.  Have done that on rabbits and grouse where I aim at the top of the head (not all get shot flying).  Now we are talking about a smooth bore using a turkey barrel. 

DP

[bob in the woods]

I had a 28 smoothbore years ago, which performed well beyond what it's bore size suggested.
It was an awesome partridge, and rabbit gun. I went up to a 20 borebut why I'll never know.
I kick myself for having sold it.  I plan to keep my 10s because they are in a class of their own for hunting big stuff, and turkeys etc.  For the smaller game, that 28 did everything I needed.  I'll have to build another.

[Mike R]

I was raised by a small game hunting father, who only owned two guns most of his life[besides his FBI sidearm]--a .22 rifle and a 20 gauge shotgun. He always preferred hunting with the shotgun although being a crack shot with the .22.  So he gave me the .22 to carry when we went after squirrels [or rabbits]. After going out on my own I got a shotgun and a .22, but found that the squirrels were "too easy" with the scatter gun--didn't seem sporting.  My Dad hunted for meat for the table, 'sport' was only part of the game to him. So I went back to the .22 for squirrels and used the shotgun for flushing birds like grouse, pheasant and quail....I have never felt handicapped with either my .22s or my muzzleloading squirrel rifles [currently a .32, used to have a .36].  Now, if those little suckers could FLY I might go back to a shotgun!

[northmn]

If you are using shot, gauge is not as important as for Round Ball sue where one may not want quite the recoil and expense.  I had a 28 ga Dixie Gun works special, with the steel ramrod and the stock drilled into the buttplate so that the ramrod did not have to be held in by thimbles.  I shot a few grouse flying with it and even used it in some competitions.  I sold it because it was just so cheaply made.  A 20 can be loaded with as light as 5/8 oz of shot efficiently (that used to be the old BPC load).  For shot only I would personally go 16 ga or heavier as I have found 1 oz to be about as light as I want to go for upland use.  Even so, a small bore double flintlock sounds intriguing.

DP

[hanshi]

Nice guns, Roundball.  I can't look at a longrifle without thinking, squirrel, deer!  I've used both smoothies and rifles and definitely prefer rifles.  They just seem to go together.  Since I acquired a .62 fowler, though, I'm sure it'll be out in the squirrel woods at least some.  Turkey?  Goes without saying.  Got a lot of load work to do.

[northmn]

About the largest bore you will see in a 7/8 barrel is a 50.  A 50 smoothbore or about 32 bore still will work.

DP

[northmn]

Depending on loads with a BP smooth bore there might not be too much difference anyway.  A squirrel load would depend on your range requirements and shot used.  Stringing would not be so much of a problem.  You need to get another barrel made for that rifle that will interchange with the 45 so you can use both.  Not as hard as you think for a good smith.  Been thinking about a project like that for some time.  Wouldnt it be nice to have a 58 rifled deer gun and a 20 bore turkey/squirrel  gun where one just switches barrels? I wonder if Colerain barrels match close enough??

DP

[northmn]

Big thing would be the Breechplug fit.  If built from the ground up, one can use breechplugs made by the same maker.  Takes more fitting when not done that way.   This is a little project that is starting to intrigue me, which is a bad sign. 

DP

[northmn]

A small game gun that can be converted to a deer rifle for the few shots one uses on deer.  Or a target rifle one can convert to a small game gun.  Too bad I have so many projects or I would start on one.  some rifles used small wedges instead of pins.  Pins with excutions would also work.  Interesting build.
Bet it would sell.

DP

[Dphariss]

Shotguns are for people that can't hit a squirrel or rabbit with a rifle.

Dan

[James Rogers]

Shotguns are for people that can't hit a squirrel or rabbit with a rifle.

Dan

Sounds like a "silly" comeback for rifle shooter that got  his clock cleaned while shotgunning.

[Dphariss]

Shotguns are for people that can't hit a squirrel or rabbit with a rifle.

Dan

Sounds like a "silly" comeback for rifle shooter that got  his clock cleaned while shotgunning.

The shotgun, like a lot of things is personal preference. I just can't see shooting so much lead that equals perhaps 10% of the game's field dressed weight when 50-70 grains of lead will do the same thing.
I have not hunted anything with a shotgun or fired a SB in competition in decades. The last shot I shot at game with small shot was a Hun with a trade gun. Though I may have to make something up for the spring turkey season. Now I can't shoot grouse or huns with anything but a shotgun or bow. Stupid laws anyway. But if you can get them bunched on the ground the LC Smith would work good . As a friend used to say "they can FLY?" Stupid F&G don't think about this I guess. Last grouse I shot was with a 629 S&W now this is illegal.
Squirrels are tough little critters and I am pretty sure can carry off a lot of shot and then die later. I killed one once, a young fox squirrel that a hunter had shot about 10-15 minutes earlier (heard him shoot) with a 22 short or long (I suspected at the time). I saw a squirrel setting on a limb as I moved into the area and head shot him and found he had been shot though the center of the chest with a 22 side to side.
With this in mind IMO hunting squirrels with an open bored shotgun is not good practice. Besides I hate eating stuff with shot in it.
I always used head shots with either a 22 or a ML rifle. Body shots with a .32-.40 ML with 30-35 gr of powder result in pieces most of the time. Makes them harder to carry and skin.
On other topics.
A deer rifle can be used for small game without any changes at all. My 50 cal works fine for rabbits and such that I choose to shoot when deer are not around.

Dan

[northmn]

Mostly I like shooting squirrels with a squirrel rifle, whcih is why I am finishing up my 25.  They are good practice for deer rifles and deer hunting as there is nothing like being in the field for practice and learning.  I have shot more than a few with a 45.  However squirrel season is concurrent with grouse season and these old eyes are getting where it is getting easier to "edge" a grouse head with a shot load than use a rifle.  There would be something to be said for a turkey barrel for small game as edging works better with a tighter choke.  You can also edge a squirrel head with shot which avoids cripples.    I have shot a few grouse on the wing with a percussion shotgun, but now use a BPC double hammer for that purpose.  I am not fond of eating shot riddled game either.

DP

[Daryl]

Another conditional benefit to a smoothbore is the proximity of other people, parked vehicles, buildings, etc, to where you might hunt.  The little few acres private woodlot or two I hunt in are just 100-150 yards from where I park on a country road, and only 200-300 yards in a coupe directions up and down that road to 3-4 little houses...people, kids, dogs, cars, etc.

I have no problem taking tree shots at squirrels with a load of #5s in any direction, but won't squirrel hunt those places with a rifle.  In the heat of the moment, walking around a tree constantly looking up for a clear shot at a squirrel, its too easy to lose track of the direction of the houses and I fear the mistake of launching a ball on a trajectory that could bring it down through somebody's windshield, or on some kids head, etc...no worries at all with a .28ga shot load.

Location is very important and the reason for most shotgun-only areas.

[Dphariss]

Another conditional benefit to a smoothbore is the proximity of other people, parked vehicles, buildings, etc, to where you might hunt.  The little few acres private woodlot or two I hunt in are just 100-150 yards from where I park on a country road, and only 200-300 yards in a coupe directions up and down that road to 3-4 little houses...people, kids, dogs, cars, etc.

I have no problem taking tree shots at squirrels with a load of #5s in any direction, but won't squirrel hunt those places with a rifle.  In the heat of the moment, walking around a tree constantly looking up for a clear shot at a squirrel, its too easy to lose track of the direction of the houses and I fear the mistake of launching a ball on a trajectory that could bring it down through somebody's windshield, or on some kids head, etc...no worries at all with a .28ga shot load.

This is a valid concern and must be considered.
 
Dan

[northmn]

It is also a valid reason to use the very small bores as they do not travel as far and have less residual energy.  While a shotgun uses more lead one does not expect to hit a small game animal with the whole charge, hopefully not, but with a few pellets.  WW in their studies on ducks felt that it took, on average, 5 pellets to consistantly harvest ducks.  Jack O'Connor did a count and felt it took at least 3 body hits.  This is with shot substantial enough to penetrate into the vitals and break wings or bones.  I have seen fine shot, like 7.5 hit over head ducks and not bring them down.  I finished off a couple with 4's that another individual shot with 7.5's and we found quite a few pellets stopped at the breastbone.  I have also shot more than one grouse that had an 8 pellet or two in its breast.  Walrod on his books on grouse hunting extoled the virtues of 8 shot, after about 40 years of hunting them I disagree.  I use 7 and 6 shot on grouse, 6,5,4 on pheasant and really like steel 3's and 2's on ducks (and on pheasants where no-tox is required)  although steel 5's kill better than tehy should.  Finer stuff works good on crossing shots but not on flushed going away tail shots.  For squirrels heavier shot like 5's or 4's can kill without saturating.  Something I find 6 shot likes to do.

DP

[Mike R]

My old pappy tended to hunt everything with a 20 gauge and #8 shot [because he obtained a big supply of it]. But he was a  great wingshot and usually centered the game [and always used a mod choke].  I was raised up with a .22, so I tended to hunt everything with that. I watched Dad knock down all sorts of game with that combo, especially squirrels, rabbits and pheasant. But to me squirrels are the quintessencial small bore rifle game--be it a .22 or a .32 MLer.  They are just too darn easy with a scattergun and I also got tired of picking that darn #8 shot out of my meat!  I feel sorry for those of y'all that live in so densely populated areas that shotguns are necessary--the USA had only half as many people when I was  child and I crave the rural places now....like old Dan Boone, the country is getting too crowded for me now...

[Daryl]

Shooting over dec's, I found best with trap and skeet loads - nary a pellet in the body- head and necks riddled.  I used 1 1/2oz. #8 handloads for shooting crips on the water before they could dive.  Got this tip from a Capstick article, long ago- it works, but I would not use lighter than 5's on squirrels.

 Seems to me, I found 6's not heavy enough, when I was a kid, and the #5's worked better - 20 bore. - cylinder choke.

[Levy]

I'd like to recommend something that I haven't seen in this discussion so far (hope I haven't missed anything).  Go squirrel hunting with friend or son or daughter and one of you use a ML rifle (smallbore) and the other use a shotgun.  It covers most scenarios well enough and you can trade off on who gets the first shot. 
I started out hunting squirrels with an HE grade SuperFox in 20 ga.  It has 32" barrels and is made on an oversized 12 ga. frame (not light).  That became too easy in my teens and I switched to a .22 rifle for a while (scoped).  Next I tried my old Hollis and Sheath 12 ga. ML and that still is a lot of fun to load and shoot.  Next in the progression was an old original persussion fullstock in .29 cal.  I used it from 1983 until recently when I started hunting with a flintlock in .25 cal.
We all have our favorites, but I wouldn't want to exclude any of them from an occassional trip to the squirrel woods, it's just too much fun!

James Levy   

[Mike R]

Shooting over dec's, I found best with trap and skeet loads - nary a pellet in the body- head and necks riddled.  I used 1 1/2oz. #8 handloads for shooting crips on the water before they could dive.  Got this tip from a Capstick article, long ago- it works, but I would not use lighter than 5's on squirrels.

 Seems to me, I found 6's not heavy enough, when I was a kid, and the #5's worked better - 20 bore. - cylinder choke.

I agree that #8s are too light [they were not a recommendation, just a fact about my ol'pappy--sometimes he'd have to nail'm twice]. The big fox squirrels take alot of killing and if I was to be caught with a scattergun in the red squirrel woods I'd use #4s...for a while I used my .22 target pistol because it got too easy with the rifle! 

[Darkhorse]

I always hunt squirrels with my .40 flintlock. Constantly searching for one that will stay still long enough to draw a bead on his little head. Or body. They just scamper here and there, up and down, and I try to outsneak them.
Great fun. You see I don't like to clean squirrels much so a flintlock rifle works out just fine.
If I did like to clean squirrels, like those far gone days in my youth, I'd for sure use a shotgun.

[northmn]

I hunted them once with a very accurate scoped 22.  After hunting them with a flintlock rifle it seemed like no challenge as the difference in range alone was surprising.

DP

[Darkhorse]

That's the big thing Roundball. The ideal places and time of the season is also when I'm hunting deer. And when I'm hunting deer I don't want any extra intrusion, scent or noise in my deer woods.
Unfortunately that's also the ideal time to get those good easy shots at multiple squirrels. Later after the season here ends in Mid January, the squirrel hunting gets pretty tough.
Of course I could always hunt before deer season but the Wolves (parasites) are so bad in areas I don't want to kill what I don't eat. They say Wolves don't hurt the meat but that's not what I was taught. And old teachings die hard.

[Daryl]

Have you tried calling them?  Back East in Southern Ontario, I used a squeaker for calling squirrels - worked like a charm.  i'd walk intop the maple and oak bush, find a good spot to sit against a large Oak, then wait for the forest sounds to resume.  I'd then sweeck on the little rubber squeaker (probably from a kid's toy), but purchased at a sporting good shop, then stop, squeak again a few times, then stop. In les than a minute, you could hear them coming through the branches and 'splashing' thorugh the leaves, coming to the call.  At a shot, they'd scatter, then let the sounds of the bush, birds, etc resume then start squeeking again and they'd come back.  I used this meathod for about 6 years, until I left the area - it was always productive.
 

[J.D.]

Shotguns are for people that can't hit a squirrel or rabbit with a rifle.

Dan

I was taught that shooting squirrels with a shotgun was tantamount to murder.