Author Topic: J. Crockert patch box with pictures  (Read 11255 times)

Offline bama

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J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« on: September 04, 2008, 02:59:55 AM »
I had asked earlier about this fellow J. Crockert maybe the pictures will help. Can anybody give me an idea about a possible location and time frame that the original rifle that this box was on might have been built.

Thanks


Jim Parker

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Offline Stophel

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 03:33:19 AM »
I can imagine Crockert was the owner of the gun.

I don't know....York county PA?  Northern VA?
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Offline Tom Currie

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2008, 05:19:21 AM »
Looks like a York flower finial except it missing the 4th petal, don't know Iv'e seen a York with only 3. I'm guessing it's farther south as Stophel suggested. Wonder if the odd hinge segment spacing provides a clue for someone. They're sort of bunched in the middle. Nice old patchbox though, it's nice seeing something a little different. Looks like it probably had sideplates at one time.  Thanks for posting

Offline B Shipman

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 07:11:54 AM »
The old Wagon Road of colonial times lead from Philadelphia, thru Lancaster, York, and points west. To the west of York it branches South thru the Shenendoah Valley. The modern equivalent of the Wagon road is modern Rt. 30 and Rt. 81 is the way South.

A patchbox like this, in general, could have been done anywhere from York (the Shroyer connection) along this track South. Early Federal Period. Barring an odd and specific attribution, this is it.

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 07:19:44 AM »
The name on the lid is more than likely an owners name (possibly the original owner).  But man, what a neat patchbox!  I'm sure the rifle is a distant memory by now, but it must have been a good one, it's a shame it's gone.  Also, I agree that it was probably made further South.

Frank

Offline woodsrunner

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 04:15:12 AM »
A couple of questions, please. Looking at the unusual hinge construction, the figure engraved just to the left....could this be an old type beehive? Please tell me how this patch box possibly has ties to Shroyer (not questioning, just want to know since I think you might be on to something here!).

timM

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2008, 05:56:53 PM »
Pleasing details like that flower were copied and used for a long time.  Looking through Messrs. Chandler and Whiskers books "Kentucky Rifle Patch Boxes" I saw that hinge arrangement quite a few times.

Variations of that flower were used in a number of schools.  Noticeably from Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland & Ohio. 
tim

Offline B Shipman

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2008, 08:08:18 AM »
The 4 petal flower in variations was used by Shroyer early, he was influential, and the roads connected him directly with the Shenendoah Valley. 4 petal flowers everywhere.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2008, 12:04:44 PM »
1785-1825.  Can someone else narrow the timeframe more than that 40 year span?
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Offline woodsrunner

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 06:52:47 AM »
I would be interested in the comments Lorentz Kafka with the KRA might have about this patchbox. I also think it's tied to Schroyer, but it's a gut feeling more than anything. I think I see very subtle Masonic references in certain things, and Shroyer was a Freemason. Lorentz could very quickly expand on this, or blow it out of the water if I am wrong.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 09:01:15 AM »
Ok, I'll go out on a limb.  Here are my thoughts.  I really don't see any significant connection Schroyer.  I think it is a Maryland product and believe it's strongly related to work from Emmitsburg, perhaps Peter White.  It's not the overall final profile that I'm looking at, but the engraving designs and techniques.  If any of you have the Maryland Longrifles book, take a look at all of these examples shown.  I won't try to describe all the similarities, but to my mind, they are significant.  Maybe I'll try to scan in these photos to illustrate the comparisons.

-Jim

timM

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 09:44:49 AM »
I also question the Schreyer connection beyond what Mr. Shipman pointed out.  That being George Sr. was an early maker who probably had a large part of making this flower design popular. York being an axis road literally and of ideas to other points regionally.  In Mr. Shumway's monograph on George Schreyer Sr. & Jr. I saw a couple examples of the same hinge arrangement but nothing that gave me the distinct feeling that that PB came out of his shop. 

I think it is fun to speculate, but who knows?  My first impression was the same as Jim's,.... that being Maryland.  Masters had apprentices and journeymen working in their shops, working on pieces that they (the masters) signed.....the finshed product.  I have seen traits of these other workers infused into otherwise typical maker guns.  With that said it would seem that the overlap gets even larger in some instances? As a parting shot,.....charming patchbox that I would have enjoyed seeing the whole rifle. 

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 05:05:39 AM »
I've scanned in box pictures of a few of the rifles I mentioned in the above post.  The scan quality isn't the greatest, but it's better than nothing.  If you have Maryland Longrifles by Hartzler and Whisker, it will probably be best to refer to it since the image quality is better.


Figure 1:  Emmitsburg school box.  From page 36 of Maryland Longrifles by Hartzler and Whisker.


Figure 2:  Box from Peter White rifle.  From page 390 of Maryland Longrifles by Hartzler and Whisker. 


Figure 3:  Box from Peter White rifle.  From page 40 of Maryland Longrifles by Hartzler and Whisker.

Here are the connections I see.  Some of these are more significant than others, but I'll include them all since as a group, I think they make a stronger case. 

1)  Same hinge construction as boxes shown.
2)  Same border along box lid edge as examples shown.
3)  Engraving at each end of box lid shown in Figure 1 (fleur-de-lis designs and areas of heavy cross hatching) is similar in design and execution to that on unknown finial.
4)  Presence and style of text on Box lid.   
5)  Similar engraving around lower box final screws of unknown example as engraving around screws nearest the butplate on box shown in Figure 3.
6)  Vine like floral engraving on box lid of unknown example appears to have similarities to that in Figures 2 and 3.  One item I believe to be  of significance is the manner in which the branching lobes are shade cut.  This style of engraving relates to other Emmitsburg area examples as well.  As a final note, the lid of the unknown exaple appears to have been shortened.  Probably used on a restocked rifle.
7)  Finally the groups of three individual graver cuts that branch from the vine like engraving of box shown in Figure 2.  A similar design using groups of individual graver cuts are used to form the V-shaped running design element on the lid of the unknown example.

Once again, if you can reference the published photographs, I think you will be much better off.  Look forward to hearing what you all think.

Thanks,
Jim
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 05:16:03 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2008, 09:08:22 PM »
Jim, Thanks for taking the time do some research there. Sure are some interesting observations there.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 05:42:47 AM »
Just looking at the engraving I thought this box showed a good bit of Winchester Va influence. However the stringy (less mass) finial made me think of some of the Maryland and Western PA work or even some of the 19th century KY makers. The interupted engraving at the base of the door is very northern Shenandoah Valley to me but could also be part of the VA style that spread up into the Potomac River drainage.

Today I thought of a different approach. I went on Ancestry.com and searched the 1810 and 1820 census records. 1810 turned up only one J Crockert and one Jane Crockert. They were living together in Washington Co. PA. By 1820 the J Crockert has disappeared (probably died) and only Jane is left living in Greene Co Pa.

Those two counties form the very south west corner of PA below Pittsburg.

If you want to find more on J Crockert I'd look hard in that region. Maybe he left an inventory.

Gary
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: J. Crockert patch box with pictures
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 08:48:02 AM »
Can anyone reference a box lid that has the same low amplitude wavy line engraving that is set in from the lid edge from anywhere other than Maryland?  I've not come up with any other examples.  I'm getting the feeling this is a distinctive Emmitsburg feature.  Gary, do you think the engraving at the base of the box lid has the "interupted" feel you mention due to the box lid being shortened?  To me that bit of engraving has very much a Maryland feel with it's narrow vine like appearance and substantial use of branching lobes.  In addition, I can't get over the feeling that there is a very real connection between the fleur-de-lis type elements and associated regions of heavy cross hatching mentioned in my above post.  I'm just a rookie at this stuff, so I'd love to discuss it with anyone so inclined.  I think these points and the others I've mentioned make a very strong case for a Maryland attribution, but then again maybe I'm a bit biased since this is what i've put together!

-Jim