Author Topic: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery  (Read 15593 times)

jwh1947

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One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« on: May 02, 2010, 08:52:52 PM »
It has been said elsewhere that replacing, or in this case, aging small part on a Kentucky rifle constitutes a form of forgery or duplicity.  If that is the case, I am a counterfeiter.  I am unrepentant and do not feel like the villain out of a Dostoyevsky novel.  If I need to replace a tiny part or find one in my junk box and fit it to the rifle, I am going to do it, and I will do my best to blend it in.  Know this.  I do it and will continue to do it, as my customers would butt-slug me with the rifle if I did anything otherwise. 

Here's fakery:  adding carving; adding a patchbox; adding engraving; adding any inlays, other than perhaps a carry plate on a run out ramrod channel.  If all among us would just identify those blatant miscarriages of historic authenticity...focus on the important problems...we would have no time to worry about recently aged nipples.  Bad examples abound, and some are in advanced collections.

  Point to ponder, just for educational starters.  Why is it that you often find a rifle with a  lot of brass lip on the buttplate on the cheekside of the buttstock, referred to by sellers as "shrinkage" but that same shrinkage is not on the other side?  Or the bottom?  Likely a carved rifle.  Check it closely. 

Putting a rifle back into closest-to-original condition is OK in most gunsmiths' books.   Adding and embellishing over and above that is inappropriate. 

Offline bgf

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 10:29:14 PM »
For what little my opinion is worth, have at it.  As long as you document it, and it's not irreversible, what could be the problem?  It's not as if the nipple or screws, for example, haven't possibly been replaced several times anyway!  Many old rifles appear to have parts added or replaced rather unceremoniously to keep them in service.  My favorite is the near-ubiquitous wrist repair using brass sheet and nails.  Then there is the nail in the lock mortise to keep things snug, which appears to be common also.  I assume you are stopping well short of these things:)!

As long as there is not an intent to defraud, I would think minor repairs consistent with the original are more maintenance than restoration.  There's something a little sick in my opinion about wanting to keep an original non-functional or incomplete for want of a small part, not to mention locking them away in private collections where they can't be seen.  On the other hand, I agree with you that adding a patchbox or changing a lock to meet market demands is wrong, plainly.

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 11:43:36 PM »
Excellent points Wayne, I agree 100%

Frank

Offline JTR

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 02:50:45 AM »
I agree with Wayne on this as well, and honest work seems to be well accepted by collectors nowdays. Of course, everyone loves to get their hands on a completely original great rifle, and if you have the pocket book to manage it, it can be done. But most of the really great rifles have had something done to them, and if you want it, you're just going to have to live with the restoration.

The best way to find an unrestored gun is to look for a fairly plain gun. Most of those aren't worth enough money to warrant to time and expense of restoring.

To the fakery list, you could add making a flintlock out of a gun that clearly, or even likely, was an original percussion.

John
John Robbins

Offline Dphariss

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 09:07:50 AM »
I agree with Wayne on this as well, and honest work seems to be well accepted by collectors nowdays. Of course, everyone loves to get their hands on a completely original great rifle, and if you have the pocket book to manage it, it can be done. But most of the really great rifles have had something done to them, and if you want it, you're just going to have to live with the restoration.

The best way to find an unrestored gun is to look for a fairly plain gun. Most of those aren't worth enough money to warrant to time and expense of restoring.

To the fakery list, you could add making a flintlock out of a gun that clearly, or even likely, was an original percussion.

John


The 6 foot/6 inch rule is valid. If it looks OK at 6 ft but can be identified as a repair at 6 inches its perfect.

If it is undetectable it is nearly 100% certain the next time the item (gun, bowie knife or tea pot) sells the repair will be forgotten by the seller to put the extra money the repair makes it worth in his pocket.
Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to get into the real world a little more.


Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 06:55:12 PM »
   "Not Irreversible,"   Now this is a term that seems to come up from time to time relating to doing restoration work.   Now just want is considered irreversible?  Obviously, installing a patchbox or adding carving come to mind, but where do you draw the line?   Is it out of line to fill in a a broken out lock mortise so an appropriate lock can be fitted to the stock?  How about welding up a lock plate on a reconversion, stretching a barrel, or adding a forarm?  All these things are pretty irreversible to my mind, yet they are common restoration techniques that have been applied to some pretty high end antique guns.   None of us wants to get taken by a bogus signature on a barrel, but just what is considered "good restoration practice, and what is not.   I recently saw a post where a fellow suggested only using "hide glue" since it was 100% reversible.  If I do a quality job replacing a toe on a gun why should one be restricted to using only reversible materials?   What are your opinions?
Thanks
Ron
"The highest reward that God gives us for good work is the ability to do better work."  - Elbert Hubbard

Offline bgf

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 08:07:10 PM »
That is a slippery slope, isn't it?  It would be nice to think that everyone touching a longrifle had some respect for it and their fellow human beings, but we know that isn't true.  I would think modifying or adding any architectural element or decorative element would qualify as cheating.  It's still hard to say what the harm is in replacing a screw or pin or nipple, i.e. things that get replaced in use.  For example, looking at the slopped-out holes in some well-used old rifles, it would seem almost certain that pins could have been lost and replaced fairly regularly.

I hate to flip-flop, but the "6 foot/6 inch rule" suggested sounds about right to keep things aboveboard.  That seems to preserve the ability to "fix" things where possible in order to give a reasonably good view of the piece as it was built, but prevents or lessens the chance of outright fraud.  Even there, where does it stop?  E.g., I could do a sloppy job cutting out the lock mortise of a cap gun to fit a (now popular) flint lock, and it would still be wrong!

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 10:30:44 PM »
Lot's of high and mighty concepts thrown around here, but let's get down to the nitty gritty.
Who owns the rifle owns the right to do what he pleases with it. If I wanted to saw 20 inches off of the Howe fowler barrel, it it mine to do.
As it happens I have rifles that will stay 'as found' with nothing whatsoever being done to them, and others that I have tidied up some, with some restoraton. It is my whim to do so, and no one elses business. Nuff said!
If those who follow after me like the gun they won't mind; those who don't will keep their money. These things are not sacred objects, perhaps historical, but if you don't know the history of a gun, it is just another rifle.
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Offline louieparker

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 11:32:00 PM »
 

 I have restored guns for longer than I care to admit and at no time has anyone ever said make it look decent at six feet . Sometimes that's the way they turn out ,but most people want to take it out in the bright sunlight ,hold it close or flip down their magnifiers and see what shows . I have had people ask if I could convert a lock that would be impossible to detect. That doesn't mean that person wants to defraud someone ,he could just want his gun to look as good as possible . I certainly don't blame them for this .  If we are going to vote on this ,my vote is for the six foot rule !......... LP

Online rich pierce

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 01:06:05 AM »
It seems to me that these "rules" change quite a bit over time.  For example, I don't recall seeing a single unrestored gun in Kindig's Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age.  They all looked mighty cleaned up, all are flintlocks, no missing bits. Some may argue that he only showed the complete ones that were never found in disrepair in an attic.  But I doubt many were that shiny when found, and that none of them had anything missing.  In the 1970's and 1980's, all the original longrifles I saw at gun shows were shined up- buffed, in fact.  Now it is the fashion to display guns in a way that shows their working history.  25 years from now, who knows?
Andover, Vermont

jwh1947

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 06:37:22 AM »
OK, time for a just-for-fun poll.  Then we can take an average from our readership.  Three simple questions. 
1.) What percentage of period Kentucky rifles have had at least some wood or lock restoration?
2.)  What percentage of Kentuckies have a major issue that renders them  spurious examples unrepresentative of their appearance at origin? 
3.) What percentage of collectors do not know for certain what they are looking at and/or do not really care?

1.) 90%
2.) 20%
3.) 50%

Please add.  I'm curious.  If my numbers are at all close, it is safe to conclude that there is a market for all grades of guns and that there will never be a shortage of buyers of the lower-end stuff.  This is definitely good for gun traders and repairmen, maybe not so good when the owners go to liquidate their collections.  That's the day you (or the executor of your will) will see how good they were as investments, not before.  That being said, I have never lost money on a good gun. 

keweenaw

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2010, 04:28:12 PM »
The problem with all this is that there are people out there who do this with intent to deceive.  There was a "Beck" rifle sold at auction recently which was honestly? listed as "restored" from the trigger plate forward with "Beck" parts including the name on the barrel.  All aged appropriately.  As represented it would be hard to say there was fakery or intent to deceive.  What about the next time it's sold?  A well known maker recently restored a pair of English holster pistols of which both stocks had been lost but all the metal was present - long story on that no doubt.  Had another pair of pistols from the same maker in original condition  in hand to use as models.  He stamped, in large deep numerals the date of the restocking in the bottom of the barrel channels.  Honest work.

Tom

jwh1947

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 08:08:30 AM »
That's a good point, Tom.  Honest restoration can be sold as such and appreciated as such, but then sold off later on down the line to an unsuspecting sort who will likely get skinned because he is not getting what he thinks he is getting.

But then look at the Andreas Albrecht rifle in Shumway's book and then gaze upon the same rifle, restored, pictured in my book.  If I am not mistaken, that's the work of my friend Alan Gutchess, and he did it correctly. The gun looks as I would believe it looked, adding appropriate age, consistent to its original appearance.  This is good work, documented before and after, and so rare (only signed one I know of), and of such provenance,  that no one should ever get damaged on this one.  This work is in alignment with what many of us are saying is "kosher."

jwh1947

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 09:50:54 PM »
I think it was JTR who asked for help for new guys.  Here's an important feature that, for me, kills a rifle as any type of representative study piece.  Specifically, here we consider the marriage of an old barrel to entirely new wood and furniture.  Again, I repeat, finding a bit of honest restoration around a lock, or even a foot or so of wood up front is to be expected, and if done correctly, a gun can still be studied as representative and this is good.  But, when an old barrel is married to different wood, quite possibly old itself, then you have a distortion of historical authenticity to the point that the gun better be left alone, rather than studied, because no one can tell from the existing piece what things looked like when first made. Misinformation is more probable than "education."  

This is one of the more blatant forms of subterfuge that we occasionally encounter, and I wholeheartedly concur with Henry's description of those that sell such specimens.   Here is a dead give away.  If there are additional holes in the wood where pins or wedges used to be, and or sets of tennon traces (unused dovetails or holes), welds or fill-ins on the bottom of the barrel, something is likely not right.

This is one of the things that may not surface in a standard photo and require physical examination.  In that magical world of fairies, etc., I guess archivists could physically examine each item, then choose to photo and post the good ones.  This being entirely impractical, we just need to know that such items are often entirely misleading.    

Also, less critical, I do not personally like stretched barrels, though I have learned to accept them as part of the world we live in.  When you are stretchin' you are guessin'.   People will approximate based on distances between tennons, overall proportion, etc., but there are some assumptions, and choices are made among variables.  Again, it is often impossible to discern in photos if this rather common procedure was done.  Hope this helps.  


« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 09:52:52 PM by jwh1947 »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2010, 06:27:37 PM »
The 6 foot/6 inch rule was mentioned by Flintriflesmith as I recall, its coming from the Colonial Williamsburg shop.
It was not my idea and I failed to mention that in the post above.
Restoration/repair/fakery. Its REALLY tough to make blanket statements on this. One can run in circles and even meet himself coming from the other direction since its all different from case to case. Putting a bunch of parts together perhaps with a new made stock, maybe with wood from an old barn beam or such, can be very deceitful.
A friend of mine years ago restored a 16 pound Sharps that had been shortened about a foot. I have no idea if he still has it. Welded on a piece of steel he had bored and machined it to contour. He then lined the barrel. BUT Sharps and Meachem used fairly distinctive rifling forms and IIRC the liner, detectable or not, had the WRONG FORM for either. Instant indication of rework. So was this restoration, repair or fakery?
I completely built a burnt and rusty Sharps conversion receiver into "new" rifle but it is OBVIOUSLY a remake. 8 groove barrel with no markings. Lockplate incorrectly (for an original) made into a "NM 1869" contour. Shiloh breechblock, hammer, set triggers and the lock internals. Its a shooter that was basically a scrap receiver and a lockplate when it arrived here. Came out really nice too. Is this a fake or a continuation of the practice, started circa 1870, of making sporting rifles from Sharps military carbines? Would it easily fool anyone?

The purpose of making a collection of parts from 1770 or 1870, into a firearm again is one thing. The actual effect is something else once the firearm is in circulation. So care must be exercised. Stamping the bottom of a barrel channel is fine. But will the buyer pull this part before purchase, will the seller allow it? Will the seller then say "I never pulled the barrel either" once the restock is discovered? Its a tough call. Put a silver plate for a thumb piece with date and name as well?  This would meet the 6'/6" rule. But would the owner of the parts accept it?
Can this be done to everyone's absolute satisfaction? Probably impossible.

But its not reasonable or I think even acceptable to ban all restoration work. So the 6'/6" rule.
Repairing a broken wrist or competently adding a foot to a forestock, replacing missing wood a the toe, is different than stocking a collection of parts then aging the wood to match, perhaps even breaking or shortening the wood for better "effect".
Making a new rifle then aging it to the point of rusting the BORE??? Why?
Yes, the buyer should beware etc etc. But blaming the buyer is a PT Barnum type ploy.
Then we have people who had/have the ability to buy something they suspect (know? or even change after purchase) is less than real and then resell later knowing since they have it  the "provenance" is better.

I know parts of this post will irritate some collectors and probably some makers.
It does not mean ALL collectors do this at all or even that most do it all the time. Or that all people who restore intend to fake.
But the dollars can get in the way at some point along the line. Some collectors simply do not care about anything else but the dollar sign. Its a business with many as opposed to a love affair which is fine so long as the business is conducted honorably.
It takes a lot of work and skill and knowledge (luck?) to make invisible repairs and a certain amount of pride goes with it. I have done an invisible repair to an original Sharps. It was accidentally damaged while in a place where I worked and I was the "fix it guy in residence". So I fixed it. Nothing was taken away and no parts were added other than some walnut hull and butternut hull extract and some boiled oil. It was entirely cosmetic though the damage WOULD have hurt the value if visible. So is this fakery or restoration or repair? Flip a coin, if you have a 3 sided one. The gun was worth no more or no less than it was when it arrived and I helped a friend and co-worker. Was this ethical?. At the time back about 1990, it was just another "fix" this time on an older gun. The gun was not historically significant now or then being a common military model. And the owner would likely have brought it to me to fix had it been returned to him before being repaired. So did I commit fakery?
Go back to the "meet yourself coming from the other direction" statement above. I don't think anyone who has worked on old guns to any extent is completely pure in the strictest sense. But the devil is in the details.

I mentioned to a friend that I had gotten in trouble to some extent for pointing out that there were nefarious collectors.  He wondered why anyone would be upset over the simple statement of fact.
This post may make me a persona non grata  with some but its something we all need to at least think about.
Then...
There are a lot of new made flintlock locks out there with cocks that are too large. I wonder if these are modeled after a lock that was reconverted in 1876 or 1920 or 1955 with parts that are larger than were on the lock originally? The too large cock or wrong angle to the frizzen may, a very experienced friend opins, be the reason for lots of people putting flints in upside down.
So we have guns that have been "restored" perhaps decades ago having an effect on the flintlock as made today.
Dan
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jwh1947

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2010, 04:53:57 PM »
Sir, way to go.  I would rather be persona non grata and truthful than a huckster with a cheesy smile who obfuscates the obvious and takes advantage of unsuspecting buyers, all for a little fast money.

Sure, people who write honestly about this issue will likely make more enemies than friends, as some tend to get emotional at the notion that all is not what it appears to be, and really wigged out at the idea that they may have counterfeit stuff mixed in with the originals.  When they make a deep investment in one of these creations there is a tendency to go into denial, become irate, and want to shoot the messenger, if the notion arises that all in the gunroom may not be kosher.  

Americans by nature are trusting souls.  We wantto believe that there can be a happy ending to every story, in spite of the grisly headlines of daily life.  Hey, we are all brothers-in-arms, one tight family, right?  Nobody likes a party pooper, and many are enamored by that smiley face and tone of confidence.  

Slick dealers and fast talkers would not be so successful were it not for P. T. Barnum's most famous statement.

Auctions are especially suspect.  If a piece is really rock solid and clean, it can be sold to an advanced collector without paying an auctioneer a cut. Conversely, if a piece is raggedy or bogus, the true seller can hide behind the veneer of the auction house and never be known.  Henry was right last week; most experienced collectors know where the good guns reside, as there are very few around.   We know who has what, and who to call when we get tired watching over them.  Keep this in mind.

It would only be fair to mention that there are local, "anything-goes" auctions which abound around here; then there are high-end specialists with a national footprint.  I am thinking primarily of the local ones above.  More than occasionally a good collection goes to a reputable specialty auction house with good descriptions and provenance.

 





« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 07:13:15 PM by jwh1947 »

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2022, 08:36:58 PM »
Interesting perspectives in this post and worthy of being brought back to the top again. I’ll get some popcorn and a beer now and sit back and watch, let the opinions flow…. Looks like Wayne is still stirring the pot.

Offline spgordon

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2022, 09:03:47 PM »
Looks like Wayne is still stirring the pot.

Wayne is definitely still stirring pots--but not, sadly, here on the ALR forum any longer! I'd be very happy to hear his voice here again.
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Offline Rajin cajun

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2022, 01:30:33 AM »
3 words can say it all about our old rifles
# 1 - “stabilization “ , to make sound what remains of the artifact to prevent further damage.
# 2 - “Restoration “,  to return an artifact to what it was when it was made. Only replacing what was there originally . Be that re conversion to flint, restoring fore end ,replacing missing inlays, ect.
#3 - “Fabrication “,  adding inlays, converting an original percussion rifle to flint, all work done not to stabilize the artifact, but to enhance value to the unknowing customer. All done to deceive !
Shame on those who do the third. It has no place in our collecting fraternity..!
Bob
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 01:34:00 AM by Rajin cajun »
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Online Avlrc

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2022, 03:18:04 AM »
Interesting perspectives in this post and worthy of being brought back to the top again. I’ll get some popcorn and a beer now and sit back and watch, let the opinions flow…. Looks like Wayne is still stirring the pot.
WOW, where did those 12 years go.   I remember this post like it was yesterday.  His post and replies were always educational as they were entertaining.  Like a teacher you remember.

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Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2022, 04:22:30 AM »
I miss JWH, wish he still participated here.
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Offline WESTbury

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2022, 02:53:08 PM »
Wayne's thoughts on these subjects, as well as those of John Robbins are still very relevant and as we have new members, like me, repeating old but well informed threads is appropriate.
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Offline JTR

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2022, 08:39:10 PM »
Well thanks, WESTbury, but I think the really relevant ones in that thread are Louie, Dick and Frank.
John Robbins

Offline JHeath

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2022, 08:40:52 PM »
I'm new too. It seems an ongoing subject and I am sure there is more to say.

It seems to me there are two questions. One is whether the artifact itself "lies." The other question is whether the provenance lies.

 I recently saw listed at auction an exquisite Board of Ordnance presentation rifle, one of two privately owned. A silver plaque on the breech was engraved with the name of the famous native chief Joseph Brant. The auction listing stated that the rifle was NOT associated with Brant, that the rifle was authentic but the origin of the mark unknown. That is an example of a fully authentic rifle that still "lies" but has an honest provenance.

Suppose I'm cleaning my garage. I find an old barrel that came from a barn, a lock that came from an antique store, a battered stock I bought cheap at a gun show. With minimal fitting I assemble them into a complete rifle. Is that forgery? I don't think so.



Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: One more kick on the dead horse of restoration/fakery
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2022, 09:22:08 PM »
Suppose I'm cleaning my garage. I find an old barrel that came from a barn, a lock that came from an antique store, a battered stock I bought cheap at a gun show. With minimal fitting I assemble them into a complete rifle. Is that forgery? I don't think so.

If I understand the scenario you've laid out correctly, then I'd disagree quite strongly.  Taking multiple dissimilar antique components and making a "new" piece, a piece composed of pieces of various other pieces, would very definitely be considered a forgery by most antique arm collectors.  There are MANY arms 'out there' that were assembled in this manner, primarily through the first three quarters of the 20th century, and many of them now have 50+ years of genuine age added atop preexisting component age as well as 'assisted' age.  Generally, this is considered by most (at least most that I know) as forgery.

Perhaps I am not understanding your scenario clearly?

Sincerely, Curly.
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