Question on folding knives used as patch knibes and patches

[Artificer]

Folks, I'm almost at a point I have information overload and am trying to sort a few things out on the use of patch knives as patches for ALR's.  First, I would like to confine my questions to the 1735 - 1783 period, though some information will have to leak in from a little later - so let's address that first.

From the extant original early pouches (and such a dearth of those that can be identified as Rev War or earlier) it seems many to most did not have a patch knife attached.  Some rifles had patch boxes and others did not during the period of 1735 - 1783.  Many to most rifleman's knives would have been quite cumbersome to use to cut patches at the muzzle, but it could have been done.  Clasp knives were widely distributed in the 18th century and some have been found in original bags. 

I don't want to tarnish history with too much modern thought (good threads about that recently, btw) but even when I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's, most men who were not professionals and most boys had some kind of folding knife on them at most times to use as a tool for whatever it could be used for.  There are so many 18th century folding knives that still exist, that suggests it was pretty common in the 18th century as well, even for "Town People" as folding knives used on farms would more likely have been used up, lost or broken.

A folding or clasp knife usually has a thinner blade than a Rifleman's Knife.  It would have been much easier to sharpen it very sharp to cut cloth or thin leather cleanly.   A folding or clasp knife would not have gotten in the way when doing work on farms or in town and would not look as menacing in town.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see lugging around a large knife all day on a farm unless you were close to the frontier or there were raids going on.  A clasp knife would have been an easy constant companion. 

I think most people understand that you don't want to take time smoothly cutting patches at the muzzle on the frontier during battle or even for hunting. 

So what I'm getting at with all this is in the period of 1735 - 1783,  would the patches most likely have been pre cut or a clasp knife used to cut the patches either in camp, cabin or at the muzzle with a clasp knife?  Could that be the reason so few early bags of the period after 1735 - 1783 have patch knives attached? 

Gus

[The other DWS]

It sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me.
  I know from my reading of midwest fur trade site "dig books" that folding knife blades are quite common and in some cases have been found in groups that indicate that they were shipped in in bulk as blades only to be fitted with a pin and handle locally.   these are the so-called "penny' or even "half-penny" knives.  no springs-- simply a slotted wooden handle with a riveted pin as a pivot.  basically like a straight razor with an extension that would stop on the handle to keep the blade from folding back.
  Remember too that a knife and maybe a spoon were the only eating utensils--and a long knife would make a poor eating tool--and most were also too big for practical use on skinning game.
Small knives, folding or not, among other things were so ubiquitous that the are seldom mentioned at all.  It was quite apparent to me that a lot of common place material-culture stuff was so common it is below the horizon of most researchers and the contemporary commentators.
I think its safe to assume that most everyone, male and female, routinely carried a small knife and probably a strike-a-light and flint, in a pocket or pouch of some sort, more likely a basic bare bones folder of some sort.
Examining archaeologically found folder blades I was amazed at 2 things,  how thin they were and how good the steel seemed to be, especially the ones of french origin.

[James Rogers]

Quite possible. I have never researched how many and what kinds of men other than military carried a pocket knife 1735-1783 but it's a good avenue of study. I think it would probably be if needed in a particular trade and they were very common across a range of types. As far as cutting patches at the muzzle, I can't think of seeing a period reference to that idea.


Befides the method of loading a rifle  barrel, by driving down the ball with  an iron rammer, there are feveral  others which we mall mention. In  Germany they fometimes charge them  in the following manner : a piece of  thin leather or fuftian is cut of a circular  fhape, and fo large as to cover a  little more than one half of the ball ;  this piece is then greafed on one fide*  and being placed over the muzzle, the  ballball is laid upon it, and both thruft  down together ; by this means the leather  or fuftian enters into the rifles,  and the bullet being firmly embraced  by it, acquires the proper rotatory motion  in its paflage through the barrel.  If this method be equally effectual, it  is certainly much more eafy and expeditious  than that already defcribed.
An Essay on Shooting, Edie, 1789

[LRB]

  I once saw a reference to the women cutting patches for the men at one of the fights at Boonesboro. As far as I know, precut patches were the norm for the time. Most rifles had patchboxes, and the boxes most often show evidence of much use.

[T.C.Albert]

There is a reference to Squire Boone..i think I have this right...wrestling with an Indian each trying to draw the knife attached to his pouch that would settle their little battle.

It seems to me from what I have seen on a few old bags...(for what little that is worth)...that earlier bags seemed to have bigger, what could be called utility knives either attached to the strap low...at flap level, or directly to the back of the bag...

how early are these early bags...? as they are generally undated with no provenance who can say ... but based upon styles and construction technique and what little provenance exists for them...I tend to think they are late 18th or early 19th century...

Were these knives primarily "patch" knives...again...who can say...its easy to imagine that they were just a handy hunting knife...

I think the small strap mounted "patch" knife we see most often surviving on original bags, is indeed most commonly a later accoutrement.

These are just my own ideas and observations....others may be different.
TCA   

[G-Man]

Tim - you are correct.  Squire recounted the story of the famous "Cove Spring Fight" right along present day US 127, near Harrodsburg, where this occurred.   The "Cove Spring" is still shown on topo maps. The knife was referred to as being attached to his hunting pouch strap.  I think the timeframe was around 1779 or 1780 give or take a couple years.

Couple of thoughts -  I don't know how many documented pre-1790 pouches exist with the original strap in place , but if any, it is very few.  I don't think we can draw much of a conclusion about what was commonly attached or not attached on pre-1783 pouch straps just by looking at the the surviving examples - there just aren't enough.

From personal preference, the only knife I use on a regular basis to cut patches at the muzzle is a slender House style knife with a relatively long blade - probably around 7 inch blade/11.5 inches overall - mounted to the back of a bag, and it works just fine - I just keep it really sharp.   I have used pocket knives/folding knives as well, and just find it a lot easier to pull out a knife from a sheath mounted on the bag or strap - which all can be done with my right hand while holding the muzzle and the tightly gathered up patching material in my left hand, than to have to go into the bag for a fodling knife, open it etc. which usually involves two hands.  

Of course,  if you are cutting patches in advance from strips, any knife will do.  

If you look at many surviving examples of 18th century American knives, many are smaller than what many of us think of as "rifleman's knives" today and would be equally handy as all purpose skinning, patch, or general utility knives.  

One thing I have wondered about are the small late 18th century and early 19th century American daggers you see with one side of the blade with a medial ridge, the other ground flat.  Maybe for cutting patches on the muzzle?

Guy

[Mike R]

I don't think there is general accurate statement that can be made about it.  Certainly folding knives were common--supported by lists of trade items and other period writings. Whether or not knives were attached to bags in the 18th cent is open to debate since so few such outfits survived. Probably there was no 'norm', just as for the debate on horns being attached to bags. There are at least two period references that I have seen that refer to pre-cut patches--in one case at least scissors were used. These were in prep for battle, where quick efficient reloading would be needed.  In a hunting or target shooting situation patches may have been cut at muzzle as a preference [several references]. References from the 19th cent [Mling did not change much by then] are also few, but more bags survived to study and many had attached sheath knives to straps or bag backs [and many had horns attached too].  The tiny "patch knife" however seems to be a more modern thing. Most attached knives fall into the small butcher knife category--usefull as all-around hunting knives as well as potential patch cutters.  I have read late 19th cent accounts of backwoods hunters using MLers where all the accoutrements we think of as needed were largely absent. Ball was often carried in a pocket, powder in  a small hunting horn, greased rags in a pocket and a pocket knife may be the only tool, although a big butcher is often mentioned.  School is out on this question. But it is certainly plausible that pocket knives were used to cut patches as needed [plus clean game and other uses].

[T.C.Albert]

sadly it seems there is no definitive answer...thats true...

again, its only based on my own personal limited observations, but the only patchin' I have ever recovered in a bag...are precut...
including a 1 inch stack of them threaded on a knotted string attached to the strap...

so definitively based on extant evidence...precuts may have the lead...
but again...thats only a guess reguarding the time period in question...
TCA

[Elnathan]

It has been said before, but bears repeating: the big, thick "riflemen's knives" we are familiar with today are very suspect for the period you are interested in. Most frontiersmen would likely have had a common butcher knife 5-6" or a little longer and fairly thin - maybe 3/32" thick at the spine with a triangular cross-section for an English-made knife. Those would probably have cut cloth just fine.

I like those big, blacksmith-made knives myself, but the consensus among those more knowledgable than I seems to be that they were fairly rare.

[Artificer]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much to all of you.  I found something intesesting in every response.  It also answered some questions that have been nagging at me for years.  It also seems I lucked into doing something in a more authentic manner than I knew at the time in yet another case.    

Back in 1974, I made my first knife out of O1 tool steel.  I didn't have either a forge avaiilable, nor the skill to use one.  I decided to use the stock removal method to shape the blade as I also needed the practice in filing metal.  We had a large heat treating oven in the shop, though.  My blade length wound up a little shorter than 7 inches, even though that was considered a bit short for a Rifleman's Knife in those days.  I rough cut the blade from flat stuck with a band saw, but the rest was entirely done with hand files except when I got down to using garnet paper.  

My buddy, who since became my best friend in life, kept watching the progress with great interest.  He loved the knife when it was done.  Well, since he did so much to mentor me in Muzzleloading, I decided to give it to him.  I offered to make a sheath, but he wanted it mounted on the back of his rather large size Rev War pouch.  

In earlier discussions on this forum when we talked about Long Hunters or riflemen in combat situations, I thought having a knife so mounted on the pouch would make it easier to sleep with the pouch on one's person in areas where an enemy could be expected at any time.  One less thing to have on your body jabbing you in the stomach or ribs when you lay down to sleep and still be able to react quickly if awakened suddenly when danger was threatening.  But, my buddy and I had no original documentation like the Squire Boone account to support putting the knife on the back of the pouch.  I did it anyway and he has never changed it in the 35 plus years since that time, because he really likes it there.

Again, thanks so much to everyone who responded.
Gus Fisher

[sonny]

I bet all patches were cut square an not round before starting down the bore.I don't think the material would have been wasted for donut holes left in the material.Square cut would be all used up...no waste.If i were precutting patches i would cut square shape patches.I think if i was cutting patches i would use my small pocket knife first an save my butcher for cleaning big game an knife fights............sonny

[J.D.]

Could those remnants of cloth, left over from cutting the doughnut holes, have been used as char cloth?  But that is another  discussion for another time. 

God bless