A matter of ethics and personal respect

[jwh1947]

A phone message suggested that I enter the recently posted light Lehigh at Dixon's Fair this year.  I won't do it for the following reasons:

1.) I already know where the flaws are, so the educational aspect of the judging would be totally unremarkable.  I know this because my master is the chief judge and he was there for 20% of the building.  As for ribbons, I have enough.
2.) I respect my master.  It would be totally unfair of me to submit a gun whereupon he offered advice and guidance.
3.) With my shop assistants I will present a less error laden piece worthy of evaluation that no judge has ever seen.  That would be fair.  As for assistants, please know that many submitters of Dixon entries worked under the tutelage of a master, just as they did in the past.  No problem here.  We'll use the ladies' names to keep it kosher.

For those interested in a "pattern" or "template" of acceptability for Lehigh guns, stay tuned.  Right now my wife is calling for dinner and my administrative assistant is on the phone talking about something pertaining to RICO.  Later.

[Mike Brooks]

I always figured there was no point in having my guns critiqued by people who know less about building guns than I do.

[Stophel]

Stop pulling punches, Mike, tell us how you really feel.

 

[billd]

 

[Roger Fisher]

Stop pulling punches, Mike, tell us how you really feel.

 

Yas, don't keep us wondering....

[jwh1947]

For once in my life I will keep my mouth shut about that, other than to say that I think all judging programs would benefit by having printed guidelines available to all participants, prior to entry that spell out judging criteria, terms and conditions, and judging values of different aspects.  As things stand at present, entrants are shooting at moving targets. 

Now, I promised to list identifying characteristics of Lehigh rifles.  This list is neither necessary nor sufficient to identify all Lehighs, and period of manufacture makes a difference, but here are some things to consider:

Sheath buttplates common,
Two-piece, wide patch box with Fleur-de-lis finial and engraving,
Classic curvilinear buttstock profile with double radius at bottom (lost on later examples),
Spade trigger,
Trigger guard with wide bow and pronounced stud forward of the bow,
Wider than high wrist (lost on later examples),
Thimbles with 16 facets and a thumbnail in rear thimble (later examples sometimes lack a rear pipe),
Tiny sights,
If present, the nose cap should have an open front,
V-shaped contour to forestock.
If patchbox is present, release normally is at rear,

Occasionally the presence of the "Allentown Indian" and look for a prayer hole in the cavity if there is a patch box. 

There are some constructive guides for you Lehigh builders.

[Michael]

Won enough ribbons there. My issue has always been my definition of "traditional" does not match the judges definition.

[Don Getz]

I think the judging at Dixon's serves a good purpose.   It gives a lot of new builders an ego boost, and if not, it at least
shows them where they need to improve.   You can replace all of those judges and you will still have some people happy
as clams with alll their ribbons, and others *#)*^~ off because they didn't get more.  It has always been a big part of the
"Gunmakers Fair", and is the main ingredient of it.   After all, the whole affair is just what the name implies, and a fun one
at that....................Don

[Mike Brooks]

Sheath buttplates common

Unfamiliar term for me?

[Mike Brooks]

I think the judging at Dixon's serves a good purpose.   It gives a lot of new builders an ego boost, and if not, it at least
shows them where they need to improve.   You can replace all of those judges and you will still have some people happy
as clams with alll their ribbons, and others *#)*^~ off because they didn't get more.  It has always been a big part of the
"Gunmakers Fair", and is the main ingredient of it.   After all, the whole affair is just what the name implies, and a fun one
at that....................Don

The big problem with this judging is many/most originals would get low marks.

[Acer Saccharum]

My understanding of the Dixon Fair event: The point of entering the judged event is to get feedback on your work. It is to help guide you in your building. The folks who gain the most from the judging are the ones who go back and ask to go over their critique sheet. If you already know how to build guns, there is little point in entering the judging.  Mike.

Some folks go for the ribbons for personal gain, to be able to say their guns are now judged to be 'top of the fair', and command a higher price.

This event is surely a draw to the fair. It's always enjoyable to see the different kinds of work and levels of workmanship, to see all the folks rubbernecking, talking about the work, guessing who built what, and which one will win which category.

Tom

[Cody Tetachuk]

Sheath buttplates common

Unfamiliar term for me?

Buttplates where the BP return is inlet into the comb (with wood on either side of the return)

[Mike Brooks]

My understanding of the Dixon Fair event: The point of entering the judged event is to get feedback on your work. It is to help guide you in your building. The folks who gain the most from the judging are the ones who go back and ask to go over their critique sheet. If you already know how to build guns, there is little point in entering the judging.  Mike.

Some folks go for the ribbons for personal gain, to be able to say their guns are now judged to be 'top of the fair', and command a higher price.

This event is surely a draw to the fair. It's always enjoyable to see the different kinds of work and levels of workmanship, to see all the folks rubbernecking, talking about the work, guessing who built what, and which one will win which category.

Tom

It's obviously a great event, one fine day I'll actually attend.
 Do they have a fantasy class there? Most winning guns I have seen pictures of that some of the "Masters" have built certainly belong in it.

[Mike Brooks]

Sheath buttplates common

Unfamiliar term for me?

Buttplates where the BP return is inlet into the comb (with wood on either side of the return)

OK, thanks

[Cody Tetachuk]

I always figured there was no point in having my guns critiqued by people who know less about building guns than I do.

I understand your point, however, some of these judges have handled and examined more originals that most of us will ever see. I'm reminded of something Don Glasser said "I don't need to know how to bake an apple pie to know when I'm eating a good one". Although I understand that they are getting hard up for judges as of late and are picking up anyone willing to do it regardless of qualifications  

[northmn]

Judged events can be frustrating even when standards are established.  I used to be involved in retriever field trials and even judged a few.  One standard that still sticks out to me is the one concerning shore running where the dog is to swim in a straight line to a bird and not run along the shore and then jump in to swim less.  Instead of swimming 40 yards the dog may only swim 10 yards.  Always showed the dog was smarter than the handlers and judges, but you could disqualify it for that.
Used to know builders that would taper the bolster & frizzen plate on the locks so that they would get the flare at the back of the lock mortise that came as a result of using a swamped barrel, only they were using a straight barrel.  I never bothered.  
There is nothing wrong with taking a rifle to an event like Dixon's to be judged, and it probably is constructive.  Not saying it would not help me, but I have little desire to do so.  I pretty much accomplish what I like to accomplish within some common standards.  I filter opinions on this site as to who offers them.  Some variations I may have over some of the originals I consider my own trademarks so to speak, just like Beyer did not slavishly copy Beck I do not necessarily feel the need to slavishly copy certain small attributes.  Another point is that were I a judge at Dixon's there are certain styles that I would automatically disregard.  Some of the really curved Allentown styles and the Bedford rifles would rate rather low for me.  Not saying that someone should not be attracted to them, just don't ask me to consider one.  I think we all have certain likes and dislikes in that manner.

DP

[rich pierce]

Entering a gun for a critique at any event like Dixon's is unsatisfying.  Because of the press of time, you get some scribbled notes and no hands-on help.  Better to have a great maker look your gun over and offer his impressions.  Then take it to another and do the same.  You'll find that one guy loves this, and that other thing isn't quite right, and the other fellow is not so crazy about this, but like that.  I focus on where there is consensus.  There are lots of fellows who will offer good advice when they have the time.

Also at Dixon's there's an awful lot of fine work, so expecting to ribbon with a fine entry is actually a long shot.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Sounds wise to me.....

[Jim Filipski]

My take on the matter:
 You can gain more knowledge at Dixon's Gunmakers Fair in a few hours by walking around observering, asking questions and attending seminars then anything you gain from the judging. That is  IMHO.
I kinda of like Mike Brooks original post on this subject.... but that's just me talking

Kinda like reinventing the wheel and making it better possibly can be done but..... why
 
Jim

[jwh1947]

Mr. Brooks, the answer has been mentioned but I would add the following clarification.  If you quickly examine the butt plates on classic Lehighs they are distinctly different from, say, Lancaster plates, or any others, for that matter.  As a matter of fact, putting a Lancaster plate on a Lehigh would be somewhat like placing a VW grille on a Cadillac.  In this instance, the judges would unanimously conclude that there is a regional flaw, and they would be correct.

The more common plate is cut in, as you know, deeply at top and set in.  The Rupp, Moll type are thin at the heel, drawing little wood, and we in the cartel call it a sheath.

Incidentally, I have seen your work, and you are a true master.  Hope this helps.   

[Mike Brooks]

Mr. Brooks, the answer has been mentioned but I would add the following clarification.  If you quickly examine the butt plates on classic Lehighs they are distinctly different from, say, Lancaster plates, or any others, for that matter.  As a matter of fact, putting a Lancaster plate on a Lehigh would be somewhat like placing a VW grille on a Cadillac.  In this instance, the judges would unanimously conclude that there is a regional flaw, and they would be correct.

The more common plate is cut in, as you know, deeply at top and set in.  The Rupp, Moll type are thin at the heel, drawing little wood, and we in the cartel call it a sheath.

Incidentally, I have seen your work, and you are a true master.  Hope this helps.   

I am familiar with the buttplate style, just never heard the "sheath" term applied to it before.......I need to get out more....

[LURCHWV@BJS]

   Being young to the building world it seems to me too many people are too concerned with making exact period or follow specific builders designs to the point of being anal about it.  I do not say this to be rude or disrespectful toward anyone.  Each rifle, In my opinion could resemble a specific style or mimic another builder but have a personality all it's own.  Why should it matter what style BP or Lock the builder put on his or her build.  There are so many possible combinations out there.  Who say's all rifles have to look like someone else's  I may be speaking out of turn here. And some may say I missed the point of the original thread.  I don't need someone to tell me I took too much wood from the barrel channel, or out of the tang inlet,or the lock mortice. These are obvious.  My first rifle has a style that may resemble a Jeager but I hope when ya'll see the finished work it doesn't reflect on any one builder. I am trying to incorporate several diffrent styles to form one.  I do not see the need to had someone tell me the style is wrong.

  How can an individaul style be wrong? Because it didn't follow the Masters?   Question:  Who did they Follow?














                 Rich

[Leatherbelly]

  Rich,
    Good point. The original masters led, not followed. They led with their own distinctive designs and architecture. JMHO tho.

[rich pierce]

Even with a fantasy rifle or contemporary rifle, there are elements of architecture that are universally seen as "rules".  So if someone built a rifle with a square forend and said, "That's my style", it wouldn't pass muster.

Dixon's must be coming up in people's minds.  We have this discussion every year.

[smylee grouch]

In that I really enjoy everything about the longrifle culture, looking at them, talking about them, building them, being with others who do the same, etc., I just cant reason an excuse not to want to go to a Dixon's type event. About the only thing that they dont have at these events that I might enjoy more than the above mentioned reasons to go would be actual shooting events.  I can build a completly workable, reasonably attractive gun and be a happy man but why not try to improve my self and be with others of my kind. I hope to make it to some of these events when I retire and I know I will enjoy. Thanks for your time.  Flintlocks Forever.    Gary