A matter of ethics and personal respect

[Don Getz]

I must concur with Mike on the name of such a buttplate...."sheath"....sorry, I am not familiar with that term either.......Don

[Cody Tetachuk]

   Being young to the building world it seems to me too many people are too concerned with making exact period or follow specific builders designs to the point of being anal about it.  I do not say this to be rude or disrespectful toward anyone.  Each rifle, In my opinion could resemble a specific style or mimic another builder but have a personality all it's own.  Why should it matter what style BP or Lock the builder put on his or her build.  There are so many possible combinations out there.  Who say's all rifles have to look like someone else's  I may be speaking out of turn here. And some may say I missed the point of the original thread.  I don't need someone to tell me I took too much wood from the barrel channel, or out of the tang inlet,or the lock mortice. These are obvious.  My first rifle has a style that may resemble a Jeager but I hope when ya'll see the finished work it doesn't reflect on any one builder. I am trying to incorporate several diffrent styles to form one.  I do not see the need to had someone tell me the style is wrong.

  How can an individaul style be wrong? Because it didn't follow the Masters?   Question:  Who did they Follow?

Well, kinda yes, kinda no. While it's true that a contemporary gun can be whatever the maker wants, as richpierce suggested, there are STILL some 'rules'. Example, if you were to use lehigh architecture in the butt but applied a early fowler style trigger guard and a deeply curved percussion era butt plate and scheutzen lock, you could call it 'personal expression' but, in the end, it would still be a dogs breakfast. Something like a model A hood and fenders grafted to a '57 chevy. Typically, when people are told that there are elements about their gun that are "wrong" is when a gun is presented as "Here's my Beck" or "just finished my Lehigh". When a gun is presented as being from a specific maker or region, then they DO have fairly stringent rules. So, in essence, if your building a contemporary, as you suggest, it can't be wrong......but it can still be fugly. As far as 'who did the old masters follow'?, I believe that, for the most part, they followed the direction from THEIR master.

[Berks Liberty]

I've thought about entering my current build in to Dixon's and I'm still kicking it around.  I've been a little more critical about this one than my last and I suspect my next build, I will be more critical than this one.  My game plan is to stick to my interest of Berks rifles and learn everything about them before I attempt to move on to another school.  I believe if you can't build a rifle with every characteristic of a Berks school then why move on to another area.  Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't study other areas to get familiar with them but unless you are building day in and day out to accomplish building multiple rifles in a year then why not just learn everything you can about the architecture of the school you want to accomplish and stick to it until you get it right.  I believe clean lines, tight inlays and overall finish will come in time.  As for Dixon's.  I believe the person handling your work will critique on what they know, like or dislike.  I trust their opinion and would take the opinion to heart. But  I think I would get more out of taking the rifle to someone who has built from that school and has more experience. 

Jason

[Stophel]

I think the term "sheath buttplate" is a Ron Gabel-ism.

 

I don't know if there's another term other than to call it "the type of buttplate that has the tang inlet into the comb where it is not visible on the sides of the stock"...  just rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it?

[Swampwalker]

How about 'inset butplate return' or is that just as ambiguous?

[jwh1947]

Don, et. al.  I did not coin the term "sheath" butt plate.  It is in the literature and Ron Gabel uses it to refer to the type.  They can be a pain to install, relatively speaking.

[jwh1947]

That's interesting..."anal."  OK, some of us are interested in keeping things consistent with what we have handled and what we see as congruent with the originals in a particular region or a school, but do not see ourselves as "copyists."  Some would likely argue that I occasionally deviate too far from the  traditional norm, often on carving, because I do take personal liberties with that and do not always stay within strict county lines.  

But, speaking of that, if you were to enter a Lancaster with a Bedford lock, or a Lancaster with a "sheath" plate, you'd likely hear about that from the Dixons' judges, and they would be right in pointing it out.  

I do not mean to belittle contests and fairs, as I enjoy them the same as the next guy, but there is the manifest motive, as outlined by the event promoters; that is education.  But then there is the latent motivation of most of the entrants...nothing but "blue."  Wanna' place a wager?  Take the average participant and offer him A:) A booby-prize (participant's) green ribbon and 5 pages of criticism, or B:) A blue ribbon and an "atta-boy," and guess which choice most will make.    On the contrary, lots of proud, testosterone-fueled egos put up with the criticism in hopes of hitting a good year and "winning."  Nothing wrong with this; why deny that it is a (the) primary motivator.

 And the primary motivation of the fair is to sell blackpowder products; pure and simple.  Education serves as a noble backdrop and theme for an event that in the blackpowder world is big business.  Hard to deny, and, again, nothing wrong with it.  I plan to cash in this summer, too...with my administrative assistant and her entourage to face the public.  We'll be selling good hickory ramrods for $5.95 and French flints (which I found in Calais) for $3.50.  I am transferring a well-known retailing technique learned from Fogelsville Hotel and Amsterdam boutiques...smiles sell product.  We'll have an ample supply, but will probably be outta' there by Sat. evening and down by the 'crick with a bottle of Rakija after lunch that day.   Catch us early for best results. 

[Acer Saccharum]

JWH, when you talk about assumed testosterone levels of others, I take offense.

Also, if you are selling things, you should place an ad in the 'for sale section', and remove you items from 'building'. This is not the section to sell in.

Tom

[Cody Tetachuk]

Take the average participant and offer him A:) A booby-prize (participant's) green ribbon and 5 pages of criticism, or B:) A blue ribbon and an "atta-boy," and guess which choice most will make.  

While there are exceptions to every rule, I have to agree that most people entering their work to be judged are looking for atta-boys. EVERYONE likes a pat on the back and to be recognized for their efforts. However, if you DO enter into a judged event, you better check your pride at the door and be willing to accept whatever criticism the judges offer. After all, by entering, THAT's what you are asking for. Same goes here on ALR. If someone posts pics of their latest creation and says "here's my latest creation", They did NOT ask for critique and therefore, none should be given. OTOH, if someone posts pic of their latest creation and says "here it is, what do you think?", then giving a generic atta-boy is not only a waste of bandwidth (whatever THAT is) but is doing the poster a disservice. Unless you are Simon Cowel or Dave Kanger ( and sometimes Don Getz), one of the more difficult things we are asked to do is point out shortcomings in the work of someone that put his/her heart and soul into accomplishing. IMO, it's far more cruel to give a "wow that's great" for a gun that aint when the maker ASKED for critique. We can't fix what we don't know is wrong. OK, so I think I'm just babbling now (do what you do do well) but I'll shut the $#*! up after one more point that I think is VERY important. If someone asks for critique, it's HUGELY important to know what the gun is supposed to represent. If the gun is a contemporary, then REALLY critique can only be given regarding workmanship and execution. The elements chosen are never wrong as they are to the makers personal taste. If the gun is presented as inspired by a maker or region, THEN elements chosen become open for criticism. And that's all I have to say about that. Well, probably not.

[Mad Monk]

 And the primary motivation of the fair is to sell blackpowder products; pure and simple.  Education serves as a noble backdrop and theme for an event that in the blackpowder world is big business.  Hard to deny, and, again, nothing wrong with it.  I plan to cash in this summer, too...with my administrative assistant and her entourage to face the public.  We'll be selling good hickory ramrods for $5.95 and French flints (which I found in Calais) for $3.50.  I am transferring a well-known retailing technique learned from Fogelsville Hotel and Amsterdam boutiques...smiles sell product.  We'll have an ample supply, but will probably be outta' there by Sat. evening and down by the 'crick with a bottle of Rakija after lunch that day.   Catch us early for best results. 

Geez.  I am not alone.

I was in the very first Gunmaker's Fair and set up at each one until 1995.  I watched the event evolve.

In the beginning the concept was to give some exposure to those crafstman who supplied Dixon with hand crafted items.  I was the first horn worker there.  And for a few years the only one who did not use a belt sander and polisher cranking out horns that looked as if they had been injection molded out of polystyrene.  I sold very few horns at the fair.  The main thrust the first few years was to simply demonstrate how you made your items.
After a few years it began to change.  Craftsman came who made a living selling what they made rather than doing it as a hobby income.

By 1995 I figured it was time to back out of it.  As I hobby craftsman I simply no longer fit into the crowd.

So now I just show up to chat with old friends and eat food that I really ought not to eat at my age.

The change in direction of the Gunmaker's Fair is not really a bad thing.  It has done a lot to keep the crafts alive and in the public eye versus the in-line zip gun thing.

Bill K.

[Jim Filipski]

Just a question: Seriously;
Are not the judges learning their way also?
Can they judge every style gun with confidence and hand out proper critique?
 Not rocking the boat just looking for an explanation.
Jim

[Jim Filipski]

Again I'm not rocking the boat:
but;
To judge expertly, each school of American longrifle building is a "BIG" task. Let alone judging any form of European building. I feel that those TRULY INVOLVED in each style of building possible have more information & authority on that particular style.

Please do not take this wrong .......If you screw up you screw up! And this is not directed to novices which have every world to gain from most any critique!

Just to clarify ( Hopefully)
Jim

[roundball]

Just a question: Seriously;
Are not the judges learning their way also?
Can they judge every style gun with confidence and hand out proper critique?
 Not rocking the boat just looking for an explanation.
Jim

( As a side note, the Revolutionary War photos in your signature link are terrific, thanks! )
http://www.americanrevolutionphotos.com/

[Acer Saccharum]

I think the judges are very familiar with the Lehigh style, Reading, Lancaster, for example. But when a Dutch trade gun shows up, or an English Artillery carbine appears, they are somewhat at a loss. They cannot possibly be experts in every field. I would say ask yourself what you want before entering the judged event. What is it you are looking for?

If you already know how to build a gun, why are you entering?

I cannot compare early Dixon's to the present, as I've been attending for eight yrs or so. This is an event I love to go to. I talk with friends, get advice on my building, stock up on parts and ideas. I guess you get out of it what you put into it. On the contrary, if you're looking for belt sanders, you'll probably find one somewhere.

Cody, I appreciate where your sentiments lie as far as asking for critique, or just fishing for kudos. And the distinction between traditional and contemporary is very important, overlooked, and hard to define.

[Jim Filipski]

Gentlemen,
I just want to say that my previous comments & questions in no way are meant to detract from Dixon's Muzzleloading fair which is probably one of the premier events for gunbuilders and other artisans and students of the 18th & 19th century. I was at the 1st and continued for 10 years ...then took a break for a number of years only to return again ( after becoming an ALR member)
   I am very sure that the judging is fair and the critiques helpful ( on the style guns that have been studied by the judges most). I for one would not want to have that task, for even though I have built for more than half my life I still feel that I would not qualify because I'm still learning the nuances and quirks of particular styles.
   I don't like to hear , however, that a "finely" built gun has had points clipped because humidity played a part in the natural movement of the wood to the metal ( which experienced judges should know happens and should be able to see as such and know the difference) on a properly constructed long-gun  especially when using traditional finishes and not plastics that glue everything in place.
I have never put any of my pieces in the judging because I had no inclination to. Never was a competitor nor a player of sports as we know them today.  I do know in all the years I have been to Dixon's starting that first year it was held ( and I was a young builder with only two pieces behind me) I have always learned something & many times lots of things by hanging around and talking., asking questions and even sometimes getting to handle fine guns. My fingers became measuring devices, my mind a notebook and I absorbed everything I could. Making friends early on with great people like Kit Ravenshear, Don Getz, Keith Casteel and many others also helped me learn how to listen, see, interpret and understand. 
If you go there you will learn much...... It just depends on how you choose to learn.
Regards
Jim

[54Bucks]

 Well I sure am confused as to who or what is "ethical" and due "personal respect" ? I'm not even sure who the long dead original Masters are, or if they should be disqualified or have points deducted for their "latent motivations" of wanting to do blue ribbon work. Or God forbid that they were only doing it to make a buck from a customer or a bigger buck from the next one.
 At least I do know what I like when I see,feel, and shoulder it.

[Acer Saccharum]

Some things about the judging really bother me. However, it's the system that is in place, so accept it or not, that's what we have. If you want to see changes, please make suggestions, talk with the judges, or even get involved. The current judges have been doing this for years, and they do this on a volunteer basis. Recently they have been looking for folks to step in and learn the process, to keep the event going for the future.

If you are interested in the above, you should contact Jeff Guillaume. He's also the point man for organizing the seminars, and hunts down folks with a skill to share. If you'd like to give a talk on forging, or making ramrod thimbles, weaving, or any kind of appropriate hand skill, please do not hesitate to get in touch with him.

Tom