Dickert & Gill

[Virginian_Templar]

Good evening gentlemen (and ladies if there are any). I have a Dickert & Gill rifle that I know very little about and was hoping you could help me shed some light on. I bought it from a man who grew up in PA and the rifle was either in his family or had been left in the attic since he was a child (1920's/30's). The lock has been sanded at some point and it no longer locks back. I've been told to clean it, not clean it, use oil soap, to not use oil soap etc on it.  I was also told that it has a Leman style lock on it. Aside from that I know little about it. Can you enlighten me? I'll be searching for a local smith that deals with these shortly.


Pictures are located here http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9939248&postcount=9


TIA

[louieparker]

Your rifle is far to late to be a Dickert and Gill . Is the barrel marked Dickert and Gill ? If so I would say it was recycled from an earilyer rifle .   LP

[JTR]

It's hard to suggest a maker from the pictures you included, but the entire rifle might be a Leman product.
I don't know how you determined the maker, but unfortunately, it's not a Dickert & Gill. Your rifle is an original percussion gun, and both Jacob Dickert and James Gill were dead before percussion guns were being made.
None the less, it's a good looking rifle in what looks like very good original condition! If it were mine, I'd just put a good coat of cabinet wax on it and call it good.

John
 

[Virginian_Templar]

Well that takes me back to square one! I know Dickert & Gill were around in the late 1700's, but beyond that I know not much at all about them. The barrel is ~41" long. I believe the lock originally read:

H. E. LEMAN
LANCASTER PA

Since it's a pieced together rifle I don't feel too bad about wanting to fix the lock and shoot it. Is there any way to get a little grit and grime off without hurting the rifle or any value it might have? If not I'll leave it be. I did give it a light coat of oil on the bbl when I got it as it had probably been decades sine it was last shown attention. I know it spent some time in a basement leaning behind a door until the gentlemen passed away and his widow wanted it gone.

[Sean]

Jacob Dickert and James Gill were long dead before percussion guns started becoming common, but Jacob's grandsons and James' sons were not.  The two brothers tended to sign their guns J DICKERT GILL and BD GILL.   That said the butt plate looks Leman to me, the patchbox could be either, and the whole thing doesn't have the look of a recycled parts gun to me.  It could be that you have a period example of a parts gun in the sense that many of the later Lancaster makers would on occasion pick up parts from other lancaster makers to fill orders.  I'd have to see the barrel signature to make any real guesses one way or the other though.

I'm with the rest here on cleaning and I would do my best not to compromise the patina on the gun.

Sean

[Virginian_Templar]

Jacob Dickert and James Gill were long dead before percussion guns started becoming common, but Jacob's grandsons and James' sons were not.  The two brothers tended to sign their guns J DICKERT GILL and BD GILL.   That said the butt plate looks Leman to me, the patchbox could be either, and the whole thing doesn't have the look of a recycled parts gun to me.  It could be that you have a period example of a parts gun in the sense that many of the later Lancaster makers would on occasion pick up parts from other lancaster makers to fill orders.  I'd have to see the barrel signature to make any real guesses one way or the other though.

I'm with the rest here on cleaning and I would do my best not to compromise the patina on the gun.

Sean

The barrel signature is pictured at the link. At first I thought they were numbers or initials. In the right light you can read it.

What's the best method to clean this gun?

[flintriflesmith]

The only barrel picture that comes up for mr is the front sight. The signature would be between the rear sight and the breech.

[Dennis Glazener]

What's the best method to clean this gun?

I use Renaissance Wax
http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-65mL-can-Renaissance-Polish/dp/B001DSZWEM

I think Woodcraft sells it if you have a store in your area.
Dennis

[Virginian_Templar]

What's the best method to clean this gun?

I use Renaissance Wax
http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-65mL-can-Renaissance-Polish/dp/B001DSZWEM

I think Woodcraft sells it if you have a store in your area.
Dennis

Excellent, thanks you. There's a Woodcraft just down the road a piece, right close to the home brew store.

Actually since I'm pretty ignorant to the nuances of muzzle loaders, how can you tell that it wasn't a converted rifle? Is it the shape of the lock?

[Curtis]

These photos are buried in the post if you back up and find the whole post:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=795367&page=2





Very curious!

[JTR]

Heres a Dickert & Gill barrel signature,



Compare the difference between your barrel sig and this one.

As for the original percussion comment, yes, based on the shape of the lock and the wood surrounding it. Also lack of any plugged screw holes in the forward part of the lock plate where the frizzen spring or frizzen would have been. Also, it appears to be a single bolt attaching the lock to the gun, and this is generally a percussion lock attachment. Flintlocks generally had two bolts attaching them to the stock, although some will argue that late flintlocks might have had only one.

John

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

"Since it's a pieced together rifle I don't feel too bad about wanting to fix the lock and shoot it."
I only know about collecting but I have heard this caution many times from other. Two GREAT reasons not to shoot your gun. 1. It is dangerous to fire a 200 year old gun with out expert knowledge of the condition of the gun and the powder, barrel condition and other factors. . 2. You may in addition to injuring yourself, destroy a "valuable" piece of history. Other can tell you more.
Hurricane

[jwh1947]

Just a side comment on Dickert and Gill barrels.  All that has been reported is likely correct, they built Guns together for a brief time, but I have always been interested by the fact that I have personally seen quite a few barrels so signed on later guns.  More than the norm, as my database lists four of them that I have handled.  I have often thought that perhaps the two produced a pile of barrels that never got built into guns in their shop but were subsequently finished by other Lancaster builders at a later date. 

[Virginian_Templar]

Just a side comment on Dickert and Gill barrels.  All that has been reported is likely correct, they built Guns together for a brief time, but I have always been interested by the fact that I have personally seen quite a few barrels so signed on later guns.  More than the norm, as my database lists four of them that I have handled.  I have often thought that perhaps the two produced a pile of barrels that never got built into guns in their shop but were subsequently finished by other Lancaster builders at a later date. 

I've asked that question as well and it seems to be a distinct possibility. I also wonder if "the family business" was rekindled or continued by their decedents at some point, or if maybe there was a barrel of barrels stored away somewhere that was sold off at some point. I know that some manufacturers made parts for other smiths to buy as well as for their own use.

Not to stray too far, but look at Beretta, they started life making barrels for guns 500 years ago and transitioned into making whole firearms.