New F&I cartridge box/how to get flap secured

[sonny]

Hello, i have just recieved an exact copy of indendence hall/philadelphia cartridge box an having a heck of a time closing the darn cover.It seems that the leather tongue with the button hole on the cover under the front flap, won't without a two handed attempt, allow the rolled leather button wedge easily fit the tongue.It seems the pointy center of the cover flap won't allow a hand to just reach down an insert the roller/leather tab end to turn sideways an fit the short tongue.Without cursing an turning the box sideways an working on it. My civil war box has a brass stud that fits a hole in the leather strap to be pressed on.......Did they have this on F&I period cartridge boxes???.........also.....geez the box is huge! never thought they were 10" across.........sonny

[BrownBear]

I can't speak with the slightest authority about authenticity, but TOW lists both versions.  But if I'm following your description, the leather button is labeled Revolutionary era for the 1767 Charleville, while the brass alternate is dated 1777 from the Revolutionary war and called a Rawle's patent.  I can't even date the Sam Browne buttons I use, but the one you describe for the Civil War era sounds really similar.  They're really straight forward to install and work a charm.

[TPH]

Sonny, it takes practice - once you get the hang of it, it will work fine. Also, the leather tab (or as you call it, the "tongue") needs to be softened some and the hole "worn" larger or stretched from use. Try wetting the leather tab and forcing the leather button through about 15 or 20 times. Of course, you can change it out for a brass stud but the brass stud was a very rare item at the time and considered too expensive to be wasted on something like a soldier's cartridge box. Keep working on it, you'll get used to it. Also, remember, you don't button the cover every time you pull a cartridge out. When firing in ranks, the soldier would simply drop the cover in place. He would button it only when on the move.

And yes, the boxes were large.

BrownBear, where do you get your Sam Brown studs? Are you using the US or English Style? I have been looking for a source for the British pattern stud. The US Sam Brown types seen around today are strictly 20th Century, the English style date back to the late 19th Century.

[sonny]

tph.........thanks for heards up!......if i use the stud that pokes through a hole would it be period correct for F&I period??....It seem's the center of front flap which comes to a point ,won't permit me to reach down an latch it.It seem's i have to come in from back side of bag with hand under flap to even get close to closing it without using two hands.I can see the point on the cover is rolling up to permit me to try""""......to latch the leather rolled button.....sonny

[TPH]

......if i use the stud that pokes through a hole would it be period correct for F&I period??

No, I'm afraid not. As I said above, a brass stud was rarely seen on a cartridge box of any nation at the time. As late as 1820 the standard US cartridge box still used the leather button for box closure and most European boxes had the leather button as well.

[BrownBear]

BrownBear, where do you get your Sam Brown studs? Are you using the US or English Style? I have been looking for a source for the British pattern stud. The US Sam Brown types seen around today are strictly 20th Century, the English style date back to the late 19th Century.

The last couple of times I just bought from Tandy at the link I provided.  Theirs seems to be pretty much the same as sold by most other vendors.  I'm not sure about the style you're looking for, but at a guess I'd be checking shops that stock supplies for making "English" horse tack.  I bought a couple of pair of replacement irons for my daughter a few years ago, but darned if I can remember where I got them.

[Chuck Burrows]

Also check the CIvil War vendors some sell the 19th century style. Of course then again look at Bowie sheath from the 1830's on and there's a number of differnt styles.

[Artificer]

Sonny,

I think some of your problem might be in the slit/hole in the tongue that you have to shove the rolled leather through.  It may be too short top to bottom - I've seen that on a LOT of cartridge boxes from F&I through to and including War Between the States.  

I do not know for certain if the following was done on most or many cartidge boxes, but since this is an entirely authentic technique, I've been doing this for 30 years and no one has ever challenged it.  I make the length of the slit about 2/3'ds the distance of the widest point of the button.  I punch a very small round hole at the top of the slit so it won't tear out.  At the bottom of the slit, where I want the button to rest, I punch a larger round hole so the thread or lace that holds the button won't get caught/stuck when you turn the button.  Then as someone else mentioned, wet the tongue and work the button AND pull the tongue to stretch it a bit.  

This brings to mind a problem leather workers have with the "perceptions" of the public.  Most people want the cartridge box to look "unused" when they buy it new.  On some things like slings for repro muskets, straps for pouches or belts, they want the same thing.  What I have learned to do is talk with the person and advise them I can "pre-work" some of the stiffness out - but it won't look "brand new."  It is more comfortable and fits and works better, but most people don't seem to want that until I can explain it to them. 

Gus

[TPH]

Thanks BrownBear and Chuck. BB, the ones you found at Tandy are the American style and I have used them on most occasion, I have a local resource for them though he has been running low recently. The English style can be seen here:

http://www.abbeysaddlery.co.uk/product_detail.cfm?id=C059

They offer two styles and two different methods of attachment, screw and stud with burr, as shown. I have found several vendors in England that sell this style. Leffler in Australia also has them but none that I have been able to find yet in the US.

Artificer, your suggestion is excellent and I have used the same style regularly but prefer the pippin style - a teardrop shaped hole at the end of the slot. This is the style used in the arsenals and by contractors in the US in production of leather accoutrements. It was and is still widely used here and in Europe as well. The punch is available at Le Prevo in England:

http://www.leprevo.co.uk/photos/button_pippin.htm

 

[BrownBear]

I haven't run across anything like that, but I'll remember this thread and keep my eyes open.

I prefer the style of hole-and-slot produced by buttonhole pippin you linked too, but that's the first I've seen of the tool.  I've been using a small oval hole punch at the end of a slit, but it would be great to do it all in one stroke.

Thanks for the rich reply.

[Chuck Burrows]

Osborne Tools makes and sell the pippin tool in two style, round #105-1 and oval #105-2

one source for the oval:
http://www.panhandleleather.com/TOOLS_c20.htm - $59.00
Good people to deal with.....

[Artificer]

TPH,

Thanks for the information on the pippin tool.  I did not know that about the tool and boxes.  Most of the original boxes and cap boxes I've seen have been Civil War, a few Mexican War and only one or two earlier ones.  I did not have the privilege to look the earlier ones over that much, though.
Thinking back, I did see that on a couple of cap boxes, but it didn't register at the time they were deliberately cut that way.  I thought it was from wear. 

If one didn't want to purchase the pippin tool for one or two boxes, one could make that teardrop shape with a small chisel on each side.   On a few really difficult tongues, I took a wide chisel and made a slightly teardrop from the small top hole down to the larger bottom hole.  Didn't remember that until you mentioned the pippin tool, though.   Thanks again.

Gus

[BrownBear]

That Osborne tool looks a lot more skookum, Chuck.  I hadn't seen Panhandler before.  Thanks, I think. 

Looks like I'll be spending money there.  Lotsagoodstuff!

[TPH]

Thanks Chuck, I ordered 50, 3/4" roller buckles from Panhandle a month ago and I will do business with them again. Shipping was immediate and I had the buckles in my hand in a couple of days, good company. As to the punch? I should have looked in the tool section...