John Vogler Rifle

[dannybb55]

I am starting to locate/ acquire parts for the next, next project. I want to build a Brass mounted version of John Vogler's silver mounter rifle No 5, P. 60 in Bivins' LNC. There are several items that I am looking for, including advice: 1) a good scale drawing of a Salem rifle, 2) TG and BP brass, preferably sand cast yellow, 3) a 45+ in Barrel and long hickory rods. Last is where to get a nice piece of maple to carry that barrel.               
         Thanks for any help on my next one, Danny

[T*O*F]

TG and BP brass, preferably sand cast yellow,

Danny,
I don't have the book you refer to, but if you can send me some close-up pictures I may be able to help you out.  I have a fair selection of plates and guards that are not found thru normal supply channels.

Last is where to get a nice piece of maple to carry that barrel.

I've got that too.  Super curly that will take up to a 55" barrel.  Pricey though!

[dannybb55]

I was refering to Longrifles of North Carolina by John Bivins. It has the best close ups of the brass that I am looking for. Christopher and John Vogler's bras most likely came out of the same mold. I was hoping that someone has a mold for them.

[T*O*F]

I was refering to Longrifles of North Carolina by John Bivins.

I know that...............I don't have the book to look at.

It has the best close ups of the brass that I am looking for.

Scan them or take pictures and send them to me.  I may be able to help.

[dannybb55]

Sorry, I will ask my wife to get out her scanner and I will put some in my Photobucket.

[Mark Elliott]

Danny,

I sent you and Dave some photos I hope you can use.   As for the barrel,  order one from Ed Rayl.  He made one already for Sam Everly so he will have the measurements.   A Chambers Late Ketland is right for the lock.   The best source for stock wood is Freddie Harrison.   I think you might have the best chance of duplicating the color of the John Vogler rifle using a piece of curly cherry if you can get it.   The color of the original rifle is a deep cordovan which looks very rich with the polished silver.   I am not sure how that color was achieved, but I have gotten very similar results with lye on cherry.

If you have any questions about the rifle,  I had it in my hands for 30 mintues one time.  I still remember the feel of the lower forearm and wrist.  It was very rounded.  The rifle was almost perfect.   I have never seen an original so perfect right down to the iron ferrule on the breech end of the ramrod that was perfectly forge welded.   The workmanship was absolutely exquisite.   The only thing that I have seen comparable is an Issac Haines in the Winterthur collection.

Mark Elliott

[dannybb55]

Mark, Thank you for the photos. The new views are greatly appreciated. It has always amazed me that these rifles have been known for years and little work has been done on mounts. I have, of course, heard of Mr Rayl, but I am not familiar with your other friends. Two questions right off; How do I get in touch with Mr Rayl? and What caliber is this rifle?
                                                                 Danny

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Mr.Rayle can be reached @ 304-364-8269

[T*O*F]

I sent you and Dave some photos I hope you can use.

Mark,
Received the pictures, cropped them to include only the subject, and spent about an hour sharpening the edges and removing all the copy machine smutz.  Then a big thunderstorm snuck in, there was a large crack, and power was lost......along with all the work I had done.  Bummer.

[dannybb55]

Bummer with the storm,                                                                                    I seem to remember E K writing an article about the Penn-N C Moravian connection. It could be that the triggerguard castings are close.

                                            Danny

[Mark Elliott]

there was a large crack, and power was lost......along with all the work I had done.

Dave,

They have these things called UPSs.   They don't cost much money; can be obtained at most office supply stores; and prevent "Bummer"s.   

I have all my computer equipment on a 1KVA UPS.   I can keep going for 30 minutes or more before I have to switch over to the generator (another great invention).

Mark

[Sam Everly]

Danny, a few years back i started rounding up the parts. This is what i found that with some tune up will work. The guard and butt plate are from TOTW and are very close.Guard is TG-E-27 the butt plate is BP-PB-1 the but plate is a little wide and tall but you can cut it down . I have had 2 barrels made one by Rayle and one by Rice. The original was in 36 cal. i had mine made in 40 cal. I can't find the specs on the barrel but a friend took them his self, the barrel is stright taperd.     Mark as for the color, i have come very very close with Solar-lux Medium red , then a coat of solar-lux black over that. I did about 20 test boards and came up with that . It does help to have a good  woodworking supply shop close with about every stain ever made in stock . What made me try that combo ? I had my Hacker Martin pistol apart to clean it up and he had used a bright red stain or dye under the AQF he used, it is about the same color as the Vogler.                

[dannybb55]

Thanks Sam,
 Mr Bivins never updated his entries for his second edition, Calibers, RCA measurements, etc. The additional rifles in the addendum were nice though. Do you think that the rifle had a mill made barrel or that they draw filed the tube that way. Curvature is always easier to build into long iron than a true, flat plane. That is why milling machine were created.
 Do you have any idea how the PB release works? I am having a hard time with it's geometry.
                                                                Thanks, Danny

[Sam Everly]

Danny , i have some specs a friend took off the rifle a few years back. I will send you a copy in a day or two after i hunt them up . I think if you send in a request you can handle and measure the guns , if i remember right?   

[Sam Everly]

Ok the first place i looked   i found the rifle specs . This is how they are writen down as i got them . Over all 60 1/2".... Barrel lenght 44 3/4" 36 cal...Trigger pull 13 7/8"...BBL at breech 27/32"..Max butt plate width 1 1/2"...Buttplate height 4 1/16"...Stock width a cheek 1 15/16"... Wrist width 1 3/16"...Wrist height 1 5/16"...Lock panel at tail 1 1/2"...Drop from top of barrel to heal of buttplate 3 11/16" I will dig out a barrel and see what it is. He had sent that in another e-mail. ?? I was just looking at the pics i have and it looks like the trigger plate is silver also ! 

[dannybb55]

Wow Sam, thanks.
 I have enough information to start scaling her up and drafting a set of drawings.  was a straight tapered bbl common in Salem rifles?

[T*O*F]

After looking at various C&J Vogler pics, these are the nearest that I have.  They are sandcast white brass.....similar to GS but softer.

[dannybb55]

That guard sure has that elusive bow profile that Salem rifles have. NC rifles seem to have less room for the hair trigger than colder climate rifles. That median line of the bow lines up more with the toe than the heel.
                                                Danny