Author Topic: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?  (Read 40231 times)

Offline Rich

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Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« on: May 25, 2010, 04:05:16 AM »
Does anyone know what finish is used at the Williamsburg gunshop and how it is made?

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 05:19:24 AM »
The CWF Gunshop has been making rifles for almost 50 years and many different finishes have been used. In the very early years it was mostly oiled linseed on maple stocks. In the 1970s we did more experimenting with period finishes based in part on documents from the cabinetmakers trade and on analysis of traces of period finish. During those years there was a lot of hot wax on maple and varnish of various types on walnut--where the grain needed to be filled.
A few years ago there was some more collaboration with the cabinet makers who were experimenting with a lot of period formula for both oil and spirit based "varnishes."
So the answer to your question would vary with time and from gun to gun in the same year depending on whether a grain filling high gloss finish was needed or not.
Gary
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Offline B. Hey

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 06:45:44 AM »
Hey Gary ... I just visited your website ... If you keep trying, one day you just might become a decent riflesmith ;D :D ;) :) ;D Amazing work ... Another true artisan craftsman. Thanks for sharing ... Bill

Offline Clowdis

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 04:37:16 PM »
Hot wax on maple, now that's interesting. What type of wax, beeswax, parrafin? Wax mixed with linseed?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2010, 05:21:15 PM »
Hot wax on maple, now that's interesting. What type of wax, beeswax, parrafin? Wax mixed with linseed?


You can try melting crayons of the chosen color into lumberyard BLO it will stain and finish in one pass on maple. But like beeswax its hard to document to longrifles.

Dan
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2010, 07:50:33 PM »
Hot wax on maple, now that's interesting. What type of wax, beeswax, parrafin? Wax mixed with linseed?

Beeswax applied hot and litterally melted into the wood has been my favorite finish on maple for many years. I usually apply it three or four times but it depends on how the wood absorbs the hot wax. In any one application some parts of the stock will soak up a lot more wax than other parts depending on the angle of the grain, etc.

After the rifle is finished I have the owner maintain it with blend of beeswax and turpentine (with a few drops of linseed oil) mixed to about the consistency of Vaseline. Wipe a tiny bit on and buff it off with a soft cloth.

I have no desire to use any modern petroleum based waxes.

Gary
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 05:20:46 AM by flintriflesmith »
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 01:19:34 AM »
I have used beeswax and walnut oil on maple for a while now. I really like it. It is a beautiful finish that holds up to the rain and snow better than most others I've tried . For walnut, I've been using Tried and True varnish oil.

Offline Rich

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 04:09:07 AM »
Thanks, I've tried the beeswax type finish as a topcoat. Seems to have worked. Now I've been using the "tried and true" varnish from Woodcraft.

Offline John Archer

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2010, 05:11:22 AM »
Question for Gary....I noticed in your prior posts that your maintenance or touch-up recipe was a mixture of turpentine and bee's wax. You mention a mixture of linseed oil and bee's wax this time...is one better than the other?

John.
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2010, 05:27:30 AM »
Question for Gary....I noticed in your prior posts that your maintenance or touch-up recipe was a mixture of turpentine and bee's wax. You mention a mixture of linseed oil and bee's wax this time...is one better than the other? John.
John, Thank you for catching that mistake. I corrected the post -- thats what I get for trying to hurry an ALR post during my lunch break at work! Too many distractions and trying hard not to say something I'd regret about the Dan's post concerning the crayons and the lack of period documentation of ANY finish.
Gary
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2010, 07:33:37 AM »
I love the bees wax and turpentine finish.  I make a 50/50 mixture of bees wax and turpentine in a double boiler.  While the mixture is liquid I brush it on the stock.  It pretty much dries immediately.  Next I take a hair dryer to the stock to remelt the wax/turpentine mixture all the while rubbing it into the stock with an old piece of terry cloth towel.  I can do an entire longrifle this way and when I am done there is little to no wax mixture in the cloth, it is all rubbed INTO the stock.
DMR

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 02:13:28 PM »
Gary, Was pine tar ever added?
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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 06:07:33 PM »
Is the wax finish something you could/would use over a stain. I have used wax to seal longbows, but I did'nt know of anyone else doing it and I was using RIT dye on them.

I also did the hair dryer thing and then rubbed it into the wood. Just like polishing boots!

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 06:25:40 PM »
Gary, Was pine tar ever added?  Danny
I experimented with pine tar as a stain but found it, even with multiple coats, was too light in color for my taste. I used it on a tomahawk handle and two years later it still felt sticky so I never tried it on a longrifle.
When Wallace Gusler and I were kids just starting to build rifles some old timers recommended tar as a stain for curly maple but that was the petroleum oil based tar (known as asphaltum in the 18th century).  We used it a lot and applied it either cold with turpentine or hot with boiling linseed oil. The color it produces over time has more depth and translucency than any other stain I have ever found and I’m seriously considering using it on the silver mounted rifle I’m building now. You can see a sample of it at http://www.flintriflesmith.com/GunsSince1990/2002_rifle.htm

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 11:38:50 PM »
Question for Gary....I noticed in your prior posts that your maintenance or touch-up recipe was a mixture of turpentine and bee's wax. You mention a mixture of linseed oil and bee's wax this time...is one better than the other? John.
John, Thank you for catching that mistake. I corrected the post -- thats what I get for trying to hurry an ALR post during my lunch break at work! Too many distractions and trying hard not to say something I'd regret about the Dan's post concerning the crayons and the lack of period documentation of ANY finish.
Gary

So do you have any information on beewax being part of riflemakers estates? Pots for boiling oil CAN be found it seems at least in one case.  But they were probably processing oil for making house paint right?
Then of course there is the nasty old surviving finishes on guns. Usually oil based it would seem.
So how many beeswax finished guns have been found from 1750 or 1790 or 1830?

I often wonder why people will go to great lengths to document stuff like fabrics, down to TPI, clothing, shoes, how the barrel was welded and bored and rifled, how a stock was carved and the wood was smoothed then smear anything they have around the shop on it for finish and figure it good. I find the use of modern synthetics particularly amusing.

Dan
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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 11:48:01 PM »
Thanks Gary, I will keep that In mind.
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2010, 12:49:57 AM »
Dan,
As you probably already know, determining the finish on surviving rifles has many challenges not the least of which is the expense of the process and equipment required to do nondestructive testing. Very, very few labs, even  in major museums are set up to do it. The John Sheets of Staunton rifle owned by Colonial Williamsburg was tested and the results were published in Volume 5 of JHAT. I don't think I know offhand of any others.

Another reason for the lack testing is the extreme difficulty in determining which layer of finish is the original and which is something applied 5 or 50 years later. Analysis of paint on building is easy by comparison -- they just scrape away one layer after another until they get to bare wood.

Gary
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2010, 08:03:41 PM »
Dan,
As you probably already know, determining the finish on surviving rifles has many challenges not the least of which is the expense of the process and equipment required to do nondestructive testing. Very, very few labs, even  in major museums are set up to do it. The John Sheets of Staunton rifle owned by Colonial Williamsburg was tested and the results were published in Volume 5 of JHAT. I don't think I know offhand of any others.

Another reason for the lack testing is the extreme difficulty in determining which layer of finish is the original and which is something applied 5 or 50 years later. Analysis of paint on building is easy by comparison -- they just scrape away one layer after another until they get to bare wood.

Gary

First let me state that there are few things I would feel comfortable disagreeing with Flintriflesmith on concerning the American longrifle. This is perhaps the only one. Stock finish.
I will further state that I really don't care if people use beeswax or varathane as a stock finish. But do not use this sort of finish and the take someone else to task for doing something that is not historically correct.

I came back to the post because a friend phoned and was laughing about the beeswax finish thing. He uses a lot of the stuff in one of his enterprises, knows more about it than I ever will, but thinks using it on gunstocks is, well, he was joking about it....
I had mentioned the Crayon and Linseed mix for the same reason. This formula appears in a circa 1968 Muzzle Blasts BTW and I used it a few times in my youth. It actually works as the article stated if the colors are well chosen. But there are better ways.
Then I lost a finished post it seems and had to rewrite this AM.

The way another friend looked into traditional finishes was this. To find what the finishes were simply look at boiled oil and varnish making of the time, then MAKE SOME and see how it compared to what was found on surviving articles. I guess it’s a form of experimental archeology.

Almost all the varnishes of the time were linseed oil heat modified with some metals to provide dryers, color and body the oil. While find the exact formula some gunsmith might have used might be impossible its not difficult to make boiled oil or a boiled oil varnish using the same available materials and then end up with a very similar product. Since according to Mad Monk many gunsmiths made their own it would be nearly impossible, short of some sort of spectral analysis to find out what was actually used. But rosin and gum mastic are good guesses. Dammar was likely not available but my expertise fails here and I would have to dig. But a quick look on the WWW indicates it did not appear in the west until the 1820s. I don't know if pine tar would work as a resin or not. There are a number of plant gums available that probably would make a varnish similar to rosin or mastic.  Nor was a great deal used, hard varnishes are not needed or even desired. A harder varnish is more difficult to make since harder resins need higher temps and careful control must be exercised to prevent heating the oil too hot for too long.
Nor were they excessively concerned with moisture the end grain was not generally sealed in many examples this is true even today.
The idea that gunsmiths made their own finish is certainly borne out by JP Beck having an "iron pot with linseed oil" in his estate inventory. Paint pots are also listed.
So if they DID heat oil in an iron pot in the forge to heat modify it and cook in driers, pigments and resins then this is a smoking gun and I think this is the case. All the ingredients were available and it’s not as dangerous as making nitric acid stain.
The "brown varnish" as found on 18th and 19th century rifles was likely made with rosin. A very common material since ancient times. Heating the oil with some lead oxide/acetate, both ancient materials, iron oxides and maybe a few other dryers or colorants would produce a dark brown oil that would dry much faster than what is sold as boiled oil today. Adding a moderate dose of low temperature resin will produce a shiny varnish that is soft enough for gunstock use. Soft is actually desired in this case since it is superior in protecting the stock compared to finish that might crack or check due to temperature or humidity changes as the wood moves. The finish must be ELASTIC to do this. Boiled linseed oil or high oil content varnishes will do this.

In the early 19th century there is a quote from a letter where a man working at a western post advises a friend to have a "grease" finish put on rather than varnish for western prairie use, varnish being too shiny. I suspect but do not know than he means an oil finish rather than oil varnish. I have some boiled oil in the shop that is still usable as filler than it so thick it will not form a drip if a finger is dipped into it. It was made some years back and has been left open to skin over and thicken. But this, like many things is supposition from reading something written by someone who may not know exactly what he is describing.
We also must remember that anything that dried to a shine was varnish. Be it oil varnish or spirit varnish. It was an old and well developed science by the 18th century. Oil varnishes were used on sailing ships to protect the spars and masts. This was used for the same reason linseed was used on firearms, it was and is very weather resistant. Artists made a wide variety of both light and dark varnishes to use in oil painting. Stand oil is an artist’s product and is not really as suitable for gunstock use as heat modified “boiled” oil.

These are some stock finishes, oils from my finish drawer, dropped onto a Plexiglas plate. The two on the left are boiled oil and while a pretty deep brown, medium coffee I suppose, in the jar they look amber to yellow here. One is very thick, almost grease like. It is still a good fill for walnut and greatly enhances the color of American walnut. The thin oil in the middle is home cooked oil mixed with Grumbachers Oil Painting Medium III, this is a Dammar and Balsam resin varnish and makes a very durable stock finish that will stand being outside for 6 months or so in Montana from fall through to spring with no damage. Something modern plastic varnishes do not do well no matter who markets them.
The dark oil is a mix of home cooked "boiled" linseed oil, the Grumbachers III and Grumbacher's Burnt Sienna and Burnt Umber artist’s colors. Both listed as being actual iron oxides not synthetic colors. This was heated again to combine the oxides in a very small batch as a test.


This is the thick yellow looking oil finger dabbed on American walnut. The much lighter finish to left is the typical Varathane (platic) varnish.
Note the difference in color and that the heavy oil, if I were to work it back, would have nearly filled to pores in the wood in one application. I put this on as a demo for a couple of Kentucky rifle enthusiasts to show how even this really thick oil would spread on and fill walnut. Then a few day later I decided to put on some plastic finish for comparison. I should have beeswaxed it too I guess but it never occurred to me till this minute.



The dark oil/vanish looks like this applied to scraped maple, a scrap stock in this case. I scraped it smooth, kind of, and put on the finish with a fingertip. It gives the maple a golden color but does little to bring out the curl. It does not raise the grain, as expected and smoothes the surface well. It would likely allow finishing a gun ready to deliver in 2-3 days drying time if the wood was nicely scraped smooth and the varnish applied carefully but this would require a full scale test(s) to prove.
It would probably show the curl better if thinned with turpentine or put on at higher temperature. But I am not sure either would produce a one-coat finish. On plain maple this would not be important and I think this would make an excellent finish for a guns stocked in plain wood.
It is possible that staining with AF stain then burnishing then putting on the varnish might solve the problem of raising the grain on even a carved stock and on a higher end gun the extra work would be justified. By rubbing it on with a bit of cloth or tow build up around relief carving could be eliminated and the rubbing would help force the finish into the wood.



This is photo I have posted before and for good reason. As near as I can tell its a simple "brown varnish" on plain maple. From what I have read this is very much like varnishes found on some 18th century eastern rifles and is likely the same +- formula. The rifle has seen some years of use but other than where it is worn away the finish is in remarkably good  its not cracked or checked and in most cases has not failed where it is dented unless it was struck heavily or with a sharp object. Identical performance to a lighter colored varnish seen on a 1870s Ballard single shot I had examined. This rifle is in a glass case now but a good friend handled for several hours years back but was too young to think to REALLY look at the finish which is surely what the rifle came from the Hawken shop with. It is much darker than the stuff I cooked up and has an interesting red undertone.

Sure it is 1850s, but some things were slow to change and I would bet this is a finish that predates the percussion cap.
The varnish was likely painted or rubbed on the smoothed stock, perhaps right over some metal parts then allowed to dry. I doubt the finisher spent more than 30 minutes, if that, "oiling" the stock. Very efficient in time spent. Durable. Gave a dark finish on the plain wood of what is the ultimate pre-Civil War  19th century American "working rifle".
The fact that the heavy oil varnish that did not penetrate well and was  worn away in use is why we see some heavily used rifles that appear to have no finish except in well-protected areas. There are other things to be learned from looking at this rifle but it’s beyond the scope of this discussion.

The bottom line is there is a LONG and distinguished history of drying oils being used on wood, usually linseed oil with cooked in driers and resins. It has served this purpose very well for a very long time. Linseed appears on American rifles of all time frames. It’s still in use.
There is no such history or tradition concerning Beeswax as a stock finish. It’s simply not found SFAIK.

I can easily understand the frustration of people encounter when trying to use hardware store linseed oil. Its not stock finish, its designed for use on fences and buildings (log oil if you will) and as a thinner for oil paints. Trying to finish a stock with it will drive the maker to something else with a conclusion that linseed oil does not work and the old timers must have spent years finishing a stock.
 Never realizing that it must be further processed to make a satisfactory stock finish. This is a relatively easy to do but its not an option, it has to be done. By cooking the cold processed "boiled oil" from the lumberyard to kill the acids and body the oil, perhaps cooking in some more oxides/driers a very good historically correct finish can be obtained. Adding resins will make a durable oil varnish such as appears of the Hawken pictured
 "Cheating" in a way by mixing in some of the Grumbachers III varnish mentioned above will give the Kentucky rifle maker of today an easy way to make a varnish that while likely not 100% traditional certainly is better than many of the products being sold as stock finishes which, in some cases are just cheap modern varnishes, synthetics etc.  There are, apparently, some finishes that are not too bad. And there are ways to make something similar without heat. Mixing store bought "boiled" oil with Tru-oil 50-50 or a little more will make a better finish than Tru-oil which to me has very limited usefulness, though it will do touchups on very small areas nicely for example when time is a factor. Adding the oil to it slows the tru-oil and speeds and hardens the over the counter boiled oil. It then has many of the properties of the home cooked oil I make.

So I have written another novel here, taken up a lot of time, but it’s a drum that needs to be pounded on more.
While is possible to make a finish that looks pretty good with synthetic stains and plastic varnishes or beeswax its not what was used back in the day and often this shows in the finished piece. Since its actually pretty easy to make or obtain oil finishes that are at very least more correct if not spot on, I don’t understand using plastics such as Permalyn, synthetic dyes, or hot beeswax for stock finish. Some are actually far more work than the traditional  finishes based on my experience and what I read here. I would never dream of rubbing out the finish on a maple stock unless I really goofed in some way. It’s easier to put a high polish in maple BEFORE applying the stain and finish if that is what is desired. It will eliminate the grain being raised by AF stain for example and give a good looking shine to the stock in a couple of coats of finish. But it requires sanding and this sets some peoples teeth on edge it seems, not HC, though some seem to use stains and finishes that are far newer than sand paper and are even less acceptable from the standpoint of being historically correct.

Dan


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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2010, 08:42:40 PM »
Not to drift off subject, but what were his issues with using beeswax?

Not arguing just curious whether they were mechanical/physical, which I would be concerned with or just getting peoples drawers in a wad over historical correctness, which I'm not really concerned with at all.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2010, 11:22:59 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o :o

I never cease to be amazed at how far one can extrapolate one tiny bit of evidence.........As many different ways as the people on this board use to finish their guns..........I betcha even the PA longrifle purists (kinda like the Soup Nazi??) of the 18th century had their own favorite finishes...... They didn't seem to be able to agree on anything else, why settle on only one type of oil varnish or finsh fotr their guns???  Ancertainly the ragtag bunch from the South in VA, NC, SC, & GA didn't agree.....H- - -- the county leaders here today can't even agree on what kind of emergency radios to use........

I am convinced enough that I am going to try to make some varnish like Dan secribes......and I am ging to finish a gun with turpentine and beeswax........I think I may even finish one with Kramer's Best Antique Improver..... but no plastic ;D ;D ;)
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2010, 11:36:35 PM »
I made a little TV stand and a couple of gun hooks not too long ago of walnut, and "finished" them with beeswax, melted in. It made a good, quick finish, for what it was, but I just don't see myself ever using it for a gunstock finish.  It water spots VERY badly, and I can't see it being very permanent.  Sure, you can remelt it and add more, but why?  I'd rather finish a stock and be done with it.   ;)

I remember some time ago reading some old account like an inventory, or account book or something from a gunsmith (I think it was Bedford county, like 1830) where he had bought a quantity of Mastic for making varnish.  Mastic can be used for both spirit and oil varnishes.

The Sprengel work in JHAT says they used linseed oil.   ;)

Red varnish can be seen on some of the Freund guns in "Steinschloss Jaegerbuechsen". 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 11:48:30 PM by Stophel »
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2010, 11:58:07 PM »
Others have mentioned Tried and True Varnish Oil.  This does work, IF you do it right (meaning THIN, THIN, THIN and allow it to DRY, DRY, DRY).  I don't think it's really hard enough, however, for a surface varnish.  It's kinda soft and will wear off a bit quicker than it should (but I'm sure some folks like that).  It could stand to have some more rosin or other resin melted in to harden it up a bit.  Resins like Rosin and Mastic melt rather lower than the boiling point of oil, so it doesn't have to really be boiling to melt it in (apparently, that's how they did it anyway, since it is obviously not boiled).

I actually finished this stock with Tried and True.  Yes, it is dark, I know.   ;D



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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2010, 02:01:39 AM »
Quote
I think I may even finish one with Kramer's Best Antique Improver.....

Tim,
It works and it has beeswax as one of it's components.  However, it takes about a year of repeated application and drying to obtain a finish.  Talk about thin and slow build!!!!
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2010, 04:14:13 AM »
The CWF Gunshop has been making rifles for almost 50 years and many different finishes have been used. In the very early years it was mostly oiled linseed on maple stocks. In the 1970s we did more experimenting with period finishes based in part on documents from the cabinetmakers trade and on analysis of traces of period finish. During those years there was a lot of hot wax on maple and varnish of various types on walnut--where the grain needed to be filled.
A few years ago there was some more collaboration with the cabinet makers who were experimenting with a lot of period formula for both oil and spirit based "varnishes."
So the answer to your question would vary with time and from gun to gun in the same year depending on whether a grain filling high gloss finish was needed or not.
Gary

Very interesting series of posts, Gary and thank you for sharing this information.

I've often wondered why varnish was not used more often (on at least the more expensive guns) in the early rifles, but it would have been much more expensive and possibly not even available outside larger cities where cabinet and musical instrument makers were located.   I couldn't see a "barn gun" finished with varnish, for example.

Gus



   


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Re: Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2010, 05:49:23 AM »
Dan,

Thanks for the time you took to write your last post and for the pictures.  I am convinced, after much reading and email discussions with Mad Monk (and your last e-mail) that I need to learn the art of making a proper 18th century linseed oil finish.  Per your last e-mail to me, I am gathering the gear I need to either make an acceptable finish or light my back yard on fire.  I will let you and Mad Monk know how it turns out.

By the way, have you ever tried using egg shells instead of limestone to reduce the acidity when boiling the oil?  They are both calcium carbonate.  It's just easier for me to find egg shells than limestone.

Dave C
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780