Finish (not stain) used at the Williamsburg gunshop?

[Dphariss]

You had previously told me that there was no documentation.
There is none for beeswax as a wood finish that anyone has found. EXCEPT one Army officer who, I have been told, had his men scrape their muskets then apply beeswax apparently since they had nothing else to keep them busy.
A least we have SOME documentation for spirit and oil varnishes.
So how about finding the use of BW is Colonial America? What WAS it used for?
The only person I know who would possibly know thinks its ludicrous.
My point is that there are makers here who will go to great lengths to make things as as they were done in times past. Why would they then put beeswax on the stock if they have no mention of it. Mentions of stock finish are pretty rare at any rate. People here report that it water spots on furniture. I know it will absorbe surface moisture and cloud just like pure linseed will. How long it takes to recover I do not know. But it takes hours of wet for LS on a stock to do this and it only does it where there is hand contact on the wood. The only time I have had this occur was hunting almost all day in snow and cold and the snow melted where my hand contacted the stock and raised the temp.

I did find this in a 10 second Google search but context is missing from the excerpt.
From http://www.springerlink.com/content/p0271p69151674u7/
**********************
Summary  Analysis of the IR spectra of waxes isolated from samples of paints from paintings dating from the Ist to VIIth centuries of our era and fragments of archaeological antique murals has shown that in some cases the wax isolated is pure beeswax and in others it contains as impurities what are presumably resin acids, and also salts of fatty acids. The IR spectrum of pure beeswax extracted from a fragment buried for 2000 yr is absolutely identical with the spectrum of modern beeswax, which shows the extreme chemical stability of the wax.
**********************

Nor does it give a percentage of wax or if paints later than the 7th Century contained any beeswax. Though the full text may very well have this information.
And as an *ingredient* is different that using straight BW.
How about documentation from the paint and varnish making of 18th or even the 19th century?
Time to go VOTE.
Dan

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Just to insert a little more info...here is a link to a 2000 MuzzleBlasts article on traditional finishes by Eric Kettenburg

http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol5no2/articles/mbo52-1.shtml

[Stophel]

Linseed oil that boils back out of the stock in the sun was not allowed to dry.  Probably done by someone who did the "flood and soak finish".   

[Clowdis]

Linseed oil that boils back out of the stock in the sun was not allowed to dry.  Probably done by someone who did the "flood and soak finish".   

I've seen it happen on Civil War Springfields and WW2 Garands all of which were "flood and soak" linseed oil finishes if I recall correctly. I was wondering that since the beeswax doesn't really harden if heat would cause it to do the same thing. Apparently it doesn't if applied correctly.

[Mark Elliott]

I just had one of my rifles outside on display in the sun.   When I took it back in,  it was so hot, I could hardly pick it up.   None of the oil finish on it had softened or bleed back out.  I put on very thin coats and let them dry in between.   It takes days.   In the interest of full disclosure, my finish is not just linseed oil.  There is tung oil, resins and dryers.  I also put wax on top. 

Mark E.

[Stophel]

Linseed oil that boils back out of the stock in the sun was not allowed to dry.  Probably done by someone who did the "flood and soak finish".   

I've seen it happen on Civil War Springfields and WW2 Garands all of which were "flood and soak" linseed oil finishes if I recall correctly. I was wondering that since the beeswax doesn't really harden if heat would cause it to do the same thing. Apparently it doesn't if applied correctly.

I have been told that it used to be the practice to "finish" military stocks by dunking them in a vat of raw linseed oil.   

[Artificer]

I have been told that it used to be the practice to "finish" military stocks by dunking them in a vat of raw linseed oil.   

As I understand it, they dunked M1 Garand Stocks in heated boiled linseed oil on an assembly line.  What I don't know is if they used the new style boiled linseed oil or the older kind folks mention here.   As the wood got to the end of the assembly line, they wiped off the excess and then the rifles were assembled.  The rifles were also broken down into three main groups and hung together on another assembly line when they were dunked into cosmolene prior to shipping.  They had to use these assembly line methods because at the height of production, they turned out 3,000 or more rifles every 24 hours. 

Gus 

[Dphariss]

Linseed oil that boils back out of the stock in the sun was not allowed to dry.  Probably done by someone who did the "flood and soak finish".   

I've seen it happen on Civil War Springfields and WW2 Garands all of which were "flood and soak" linseed oil finishes if I recall correctly. I was wondering that since the beeswax doesn't really harden if heat would cause it to do the same thing. Apparently it doesn't if applied correctly.

They used UNBOILED OIL if I am correctly informed.
If the oil is properly made and applied it dries and will not come back out of the stock.
If mixed with aged turpentine it will harden even IN the stock.
I suspect that (if) unboiled oil was used to prevent a shine from developing with handling.
Fulton Armory states that tung oil was used late in WW-II and perhaps in post was production.
Dan

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I think they dunked my M-16 in BLO too..........

[Stophel]

Even raw linseed oil will dry, if it is applied properly...meaning VERY lightly and put in the sun to dry, dry, dry.  The purer it is, the better.  At Wal Mart, in the "Craft" department, you can usually find a small glass bottle of Daler-Rowney purified linseed oil.  This is super good artists' paint quality oil (WHY they carry this, and no pigments for making paint, I have no idea...).  Really nice stuff.   

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

So if you were going to make some varnish would you start with raw linseed oil of artists quality and boil it etc yourself??

[Swampwalker]

Those seeking a truly authentic finish should start with the raw seeds and press their own oil!

[Cody Tetachuk]

Those seeking a truly authentic finish should start with the raw seeds and press their own oil!

Or start with less seed, plant it, grow your own flax then you can harvest the seed for oil and use the straw for linen. The flowers look pretty in the garden also. I dunno 'bout you guys that always want to take shortcuts

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I tried to grow the flax........no green thumb!

[flintriflesmith]

Or start with less seed, plant it, grow your own flax then you can harvest the seed for oil and use the straw for linen. The flowers look pretty in the garden also. I dunno 'bout you guys that always want to take shortcuts

Just be careful that the flowers don't attract bees -- they might make wax!
Gary

[Robby]

When planting the seed, use its length as a basis for the golden mean in determining how far apart you should sow them.
Robby

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Those seeking a truly authentic finish should start with the raw seeds and press their own oil!

Or start with less seed, plant it, grow your own flax then you can harvest the seed for oil and use the straw for linen. The flowers look pretty in the garden also. I dunno 'bout you guys that always want to take shortcuts

Well if I plant flax seed to grow cotton, crush the cottonseed to make wwill it keep the bees away???

[heinz]

Dr Tim, if you plant flax seed to grow cotton you will be disappointed.  If they know you have done this the bees will charge you way too much for the honey.

[Stophel]

Just be careful that the flowers don't attract bees -- they might make wax!
Gary

No danger of that happening here.  The bees have all disappeared.  I haven't seen one single honeybee this year, and only a very, very few in the last several years.

[Tomegad]

hmmm y'all sound like a bunch of violin makes.LOL varnish talk seems to be similar in all trades

[Stophel]

I think if it weren't for instrument makers being interested in historical finishes, we would know a LOT less about them.   

[Tomegad]

perhaps true, Ive been a violin maker for quite while and have seen and tried about every varnish oil and spirit historic and hypothetical. Interestingly imho it come down to a few things. A classical violin varnishes are comprised of a dying oil ( linseed walnut etc) these oils must be boiled ( yes actually boiled)to begin the polymerization . Interestingly a linseed varnish will gain mass as it dries due to the addition of O2 as the polymer chains grow.I refer the inquisitive to "the artist hand book "by Ray Smith There are various opinions as to dryers such as lead being used. Speculation and with some providence is that oils were exposed to the sun in lead trays which would improve the dying properties  This meatdod prevented  an over adsorption on lead which would will cause problems with the varnish films drying. and  a resin whether it be amber copal mastics rosin  added etc when the materials were finally amalgamated you need a resin to provide volume to the varnish. Classic violin varnishes from cremona and Italy in general also were colored with lakes ( madder Brazil wood etc) and earth pigment ( very finely ground)  SO ultimately the key is surface preparation. Research points to residue of mineral  of volcanic origin in what is called the ground in classical violins .  I personals used  Boiled oil, with Lavender oil ( a sicative) and rotten stone which where scowered on wood produces a lovely ground

[Dphariss]

perhaps true, Ive been a violin maker for quite while and have seen and tried about every varnish oil and spirit historic and hypothetical. Interestingly imho it come down to a few things. A classical violin varnishes are comprised of a dying oil ( linseed walnut etc) these oils must be boiled ( yes actually boiled)to begin the polymerization . Interestingly a linseed varnish will gain mass as it dries due to the addition of O2 as the polymer chains grow.I refer the inquisitive to "the artist hand book "by Ray Smith There are various opinions as to dryers such as lead being used. Speculation and with some providence is that oils were exposed to the sun in lead trays which would improve the dying properties  This meatdod prevented  an over adsorption on lead which would will cause problems with the varnish films drying. and  a resin whether it be amber copal mastics rosin  added etc when the materials were finally amalgamated you need a resin to provide volume to the varnish. Classic violin varnishes from cremona and Italy in general also were colored with lakes ( madder Brazil wood etc) and earth pigment ( very finely ground)  SO ultimately the key is surface preparation. Research points to residue of mineral  of volcanic origin in what is called the ground in classical violins .  I personals used  Boiled oil, with Lavender oil ( a sicative) and rotten stone which where scowered on wood produces a lovely ground

The sun dried oil was artist stand oil i believe it was a pale oil that allowed mixing lighter colors where a dark oil would cause problems.
So far as gaining mass I suppose the the oil may gain weight but I have lost considerable volume in any batch I ever cooked.
Also, from what I have read violin varnish etc, was often much harder than that used for firearms, being made with harder, higher temp resins. The high melting point resins required higher temps when cooking the resin into the oil at least in some cases.
The harder resins were/are also more expensive. Not a factor when using it to improve the tonal qualities of the wood, but in gun making it could be an unnecessary expense.
Not to say that the instrument makers and gun makers *never* used similar or even the same varnish. I am saying I don't think its *usually* 100% apples to apples comparison. The higher temp resins must be carefully used, I am told, to prevent damage to the oil from over heating. I.E. it was cheaper and easier to make a softer varnish that worked well with no real downside since the tonal quality of the gunstock in not important and *for this use* softer vanishes have advantages.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Lavender is a siccative? ( a dryer)

Cool beans. I have some siccative, I got from Kremer Pigments, but it's cobalt based, and yes, it does dry the oil, but I don't like getting that on my hands. I'll do a test with the lavender oil, as I can get that easily from the healthfood store.

[Leatherbelly]

  I wonder how them treated violins handle the humidity ,rain and other outdoor extremities? great thread! I like flax seeds and the "golden mean"! Should they be planted that close? I might lose sleep on that one .