Whats a fair price?

[Robby]

Taylor, I have posted many guns on this site, and with the exception of Acer, on one gun, I don't recall anyone else you mentioned, yourself included, offering up any opinion. I must make perfect guns. Don't get me wrong, they were well received, and I am very appreciative of that. It took no more guts to post them, than it takes to open an encyclopedia. Both exercises would be to cure my own ignorance, and seek enlightenment. I guess this is, more a difference of perspective, than a disagreement. I have a great respect for you work, no problem on this end.
Robby

[Cody Tetachuk]

Point of reference?  What do auto mechanics make per shop hour, and what does the company charge you per shop hour for their services? 

Why choose an auto mechanic?, why not a brain surgeon. How about an NHL hockey player, even the lousy ones likely make a few hundred bucks per hour and they just play a game?. Point is, what an auto mechanic makes has no bearing on what a maker of ML guns should make. Some gun makers at $5 per hour are grossly overcharging while others, at $50 per hour are providing a bargain. It's all about the value of the end product IMO.

[billd]

There's another way to look at this.   Maybe a new up and coming builder is sitting at home watching TV because he doesn't have the money to buy parts.  If you need the experience and a way to get your name around, put a gun together for whatever you feel you need.  Not all of us are full time builders or even part timers who rely on the extra money.   Two hundred bucks will get you a plain stick of wood and a straight barrel.

I know people who flip burgers at Mickey D's for 6 bucks an hour for extra money.  I'd rather sit home and tinker on a gun for that amount if needed. If new builders sitting at home waiting for top dollar to build a gun are not going to get many customers.

Been there,
Bill

[J. Talbert]

When it comes to on-line critiques, I would guess that I'm not the only one who feels a little uncomfortable offering such comment in a public forum such as this, even if the person posting the work invites it.
It's not that I can't see the flaws, because I'm still finding similar flaws in my own work, and I guess there in lies the problem.  Pointing them out on someone else's work goes too much against my grain.  It's feels like setting myself above them.

As far as the comparison's of hourly wages for this job or that, there's a simple axiom that spells it out for me.
Your worth whatever it costs to replace you...

But that doesn't mean that that's what you're getting paid

Jeff

[bob in the woods]

I've posted my 2 cents already, but...here's a another cents worth   There have been certain jobs that I took on because I really wanted to do them. ie made a [one! ] lock.  It's now on a friend's gun. I lost my shirt on that, but I wanted to make one. The opportunity came up, and any money was gravy. The "fun" factor does come into play once in a while.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Jason, Do you want to be in business or help a friend???    If you are going into business you would be well advised to charge  what others are charging...listen to those above.. or at least look at what your friend would pay for an entry level Lancaster on TOW.  It is important to thhose who make their living at this that you don't drive the prices down ...especially as parts have to go up. It is important not to devalue the art & mystery of gunbuilding!

On the other hand if he is a friend, invite him over to work on it with you and share some of what you know and just enjoy the hobby!!! You will get more than your $200 worth.  If he insists tell him to buy you a Premium+++ blank so he can feel OK. Or just let him work it out for himself.....

[chuck-ia]

Dphariss, parts changers? I wish you could follow a mech. around for a day while he is at work, see what he does, the equipment he has to use, and the money he has invested in tools. As for gun building, I reallly don't see how one can make a living building guns, takes real talent.  chuck

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have always felt you fellas were overly kind when I posted my work here. I usually expect to hear "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING MAN!"

What are you thinkin?

Ha!!  I guess you will just have to help me see more of the faws in your work........... Some, like Dan don't hold back......but your feathers don't seem to get ruffled ....I wonder why?

All of the feedback I get on here is greatly valued.  I am still working onn a 2nd edition sideplate after the  first one got booed off the site.......rightfully so. 

[Captchee]

 What to charge ?
  Well I would agree with much of what others have said .
 But only you truly know . What do you think your skill level is .
  I also agree that if your working to make a living , your probably going to starve most of the time  unless you can crank  guns out , Create a name  for quality . Then you might make it .
 Myself . I normally charge 500.00 over parts +shipping for a basic  no frill rifle  made from a parts assembly . But that also depends on the assembly . For some companies I charge more . Then it goes up from there
 Personally , I would rather  finish up one of Jims assemblies  then I would one from TOW.

As to commenting about what’s right and what’s wrong . I think there is a time and a place  for that . If someone asks for an honest opinion , I try to give it . Both what I see as good and what I see as bad

 But when someone just states . ; look what I just finished !
 I see where no good can come from telling them  how  I don’t like something .
Again . There is time and place

[Berks Liberty]

Jason, Do you want to be in business or help a friend???    If you are going into business you would be well advised to charge  what others are charging...listen to those above.. or at least look at what your friend would pay for an entry level Lancaster on TOW.  It is important to thhose who make their living at this that you don't drive the prices down ...especially as parts have to go up. It is important not to devalue the art & mystery of gunbuilding!

On the other hand if he is a friend, invite him over to work on it with you and share some of what you know and just enjoy the hobby!!! You will get more than your $200 worth.  If he insists tell him to buy you a Premium+++ blank so he can feel OK. Or just let him work it out for himself.....

This is why I love this site!  I consider my self an apprentice and this is the reason why I come here and post my questions and work.  To be honest, I don't think my work is worth $1200+.  This is my first customer and he is a friend from work.  I am critical about everything I've made from rifles to powderhorns.  Have you ever finished a project and when you look it over you see your little mistakes but to someone who doesn't know what their looking at gives you praise like you went to the moon.  I'm an honest person and I'll give him a fair price.  I'm just beginning to get into engraving and I don't consider myself even near to building to keep food on the table.  Right now, experience is what I'm shooting for.  A gunbuilder who I admire told me, if you want to get better start building more rifles and learn the techniques properly.  That word of wisdom has always been in the back of my head.  So every time I try a new build I'm focusing on doing something to better my skills.  My ultimate goal is to honestly charge someone a good amount of money to build a rifle no matter what it is.  I will need something to do when I retire in like a 20 years, so I think I got a lot of time.  This guy doesn't want to build, he doesn't have the skill or patience.  Today another co-worker asked me to build him a rifle also.  I told him what I had invested in my last rifle and he said, "You would charge me that! I could buy one for like $700!"  Oh he mentioned he wanted me to build him one from a blank.  I said well go and buy the $700 production one because there isn't a builder out there that would build a rifle from scratch for $700.  Heck the parts alone will cost that much if not more.  Well I don't think he's willing to part with that money right now and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  Man I typed a lot! Sorry

[jwh1947]

OK. Also consider this.  Contrary to popular opinion you do not always get what you pay for.  You do, however, always pay for what you get.  Someone above quoted $1000 for a job.  I can believe that as a reasonable figure for a neat job.  

Had a guy come in just last year with a kit made by a noted local maker.  The kit cost about $700 and looked OK, and I asked him why he just didn't have one of the seller's boys assemble it.  He said. "They wanted $700."  

  He obviously expected that I'd do it for less than one of the seller's workers.  I handed him the kit and politely but hastily showed him the door.  Incidentally, why would anyone buy a kit if he did not intend on doing the work himself?  Some of us would build you a custom fitted gun for only a tad more than the total for this project is likely going to run, assuming you pay the going rate for a decent job.  Remember, they made profit on the kit, too.  

Incidentally, I don't know what conditions are in the rest of the country, but all guns made here come with an unconditional lifetime guarantee on parts and workmanship.  If the gun is dropped, cracked or mishandled and broken, I fix it at cost.  I would not extend such a guarantee to another maker's kit.  Admittedly, I try to refrain from engaging in business relationships with difficult or pressure-inducing types.  That's one of the beauties of having an avocation...you can pick and choose what jobs you do.

By the way, speaking of customer service, when I sell an antique I offer a lifetime return policy at the price the buyer paid.  Anytime, any reason, no questions asked.  As those who have dealt here know, I handle only quality items, and since they were sold originally by me at a fair price, I can take the gun back, add $$$ for inflation and age, and make the money now.  The money from the original deal was used for years, reinvested, turned over and/or spent on Rakija, so gain there, too.  Just good business, which can be done with low volume, high ticket specialty items.  It adds comfort and security for the customer, with no additional cost to me.  Incidentally, I am not advertising or pushing product, as I have no old ones now for sale and never need to resort to the Internet when I do.  

[davec2]

I am self employed and own a small aerospace company.  My day job it to test rocket propulsion systems and other "high energy" stuff that always involves a fair amount of danger and risk.  I do business with small companies and very large companies.  Most of the time, the company buyers I deal with have no idea what the technical test requirements really mean and their only job is to find the low bidder.  Since they don't know what they are asking for, they often don't know the difference between the low bidder (usually someone who doesn't know what he is up against or what he is doing) and the correct bidder (the guy who can do a good job for the best price and who knows enough about being in business to be there when you need him for a similar job next year.)  Recently, I bid a test job and they were smart enough to know that they needed me to do it (because I have done a lot of this type of work successfully for them before.)  But the buyer wanted me to do it for less than another bidder that he knew and I knew didn't have a clue what he was talking about.  I told him I had two options;  I could do the job at that lower price, work very hard, and possibly break even (but probably loose money).  Or, I could pass on the job, have the time to myself and make nothing.  Let's see...work really hard and loose money...or skip the job and do something else with my time.  Guess which one I picked.

In my opinion, if you are building something for someone else and investing a couple of weeks of your time in it, you should be making more than it costs to feed yourself better than a mac and cheese TV dinner.  Otherwise, charge nothing and call it a favor.

[Mike R]

I was at first curious at the responders who said 'do it for free' and call it a favor rather than charge less than 'normal'--it seems counterintuitive that 'free' is better than some cash for your time [unless truly doing a friend a favor--a gift].  But then I recalled an old professor of mine who made twice his salary consulting on the side. He once advised me to never sell your services cheaply. Demand what they are worth. The only problem for a young man like me at the time was figuring out what my services were worth  ....

[Osprey]

Always set a price that seems just a bit ridiculous to you.  If the buyer accepts, it means he's okay with it and you'll be really happy about the time spent, if the buyer balks you aren't out anything and can go do whatever else you want.

[FL-Flintlock]

Airconditioning folks want $75-$125 just to show up, any work performed is extra.  Took my wife to numerous doctors following a serious car crash for them to charge anywhere from $275-$550 for less than five minutes time (most around two minutes office time) only to have them say, "Nothing I can do for you."  

In the business, everything is jumping in price.  Electric bill went up 15% in January. and will be jumping another 80-125% if cap & tax passes.  Property insurance jumped 30%.  Property taxes jumped 11%.  Auto insurance jumped 20%.  Metals are going sky high again, high Ag solder alloy doubled in price since November.  German silver costs nearly the same as Sterling.  Buy any tooling lately? - if not, you're in for a rude awakening!  TCN inserts doubled in price since December and most everything else has jumped 30-75% last two years.

I'm self employed and have been since 1992, back then it was by choice, now it's by necessity because no one will hire me because of my physical issues and their fear of being sued.  After a 14 month stretch of not being able to get around and having zero income, then loosing another 3 months last year to severe illness, nothing is easy and @!*% sure not cheap!  Nothing gripes my butt more than people who work in their basement or garage for little or no money because then I have to waste my time trying to explain to clients why I have to charge what I do because I actually have to try feeding my family with the work I do!  Funny thing is, if one was to try playing doctor or lawyer or accountant from home in their spare time, the so-called "professionals" would have them arrested or be suing them yet those of us who use a trade to feed our family are somehow supposed to be unaffected by weekend warriors trying to do what we do.  What makes us full-time self-employed trade people any less professional than any other professional working to feed their family?  It's funny how the attitude changes when the shoe is on the other foot ... oh, how the cries of "unfair" and "you're taking food out of my kid's mouth" went out from the full-time employees of companies when some of the in-house positions were contracted out.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander ... or perhaps not if you're wetting your bill in someone else's pond 

[jpldude]

When it comes to pricing, I learned the hard way that if you're too busy, your prices are too low. So adjust your prices until you are as busy as you want to be.

Rgds,

John

[Leatherbelly]

On the flip side, wage earners income has not come up with all the rising costs either.Wage earners are the guys buying so it's a catch 22.

[bob in the woods]

One problem as I see it, is that the "kit" terminology gives the expectation that it's a walk  in the park to snap them together. They are a lot of work. I will sell a plain fowler ,nice wood, with Chambers lock, for 1500.00  Starting from scratch, I can build one pretty fast.  Colerain barrel, Chambers lock, + butt plate, trigger guard, and sheet metal to make the rest. Curly maple blanks I get locally. Total cost to start is maybe $400.00  A kit is expensive, and it is a lot of fiddly work to fit it all together into the preinlet cutouts.
For me, it's less off a pain to just inlet myself. I really like Chambers kits, and I have purchased them myself for my own use, but I expect to put a fair amount of time into the assembly. With regard to assembling a kit for someone else- I've found those who want a "deal" to be more picky than someone just outright buying a gun from me. As for pricing by taking the price it's worth when done, and subtracting the kit price-
No.  I'm not selling the gun. It's already their property. I'm selling my time . More than once, I've been asked to do a $500.  repair on a $200. guitar.  In the end, it's still a $200. guitar. 

[Cody Tetachuk]

As for pricing by taking the price it's worth when done, and subtracting the kit price-
No.  I'm not selling the gun. It's already their property. I'm selling my time .

I understand what you are saying, however, in fact, you should NOT be just selling your time, rather, you should be selling your skills. Some experienced builders can inlet a lock, and do it well in an hour or less. An inexperienced builder may take 4 hours and do a less than admirable job. Does that mean that the rookie should get 4x as much for inletting a lock?. If your selling time it does, after all, an hour out of a rookies life is the same hour as that from the skilled artisan. I find it disturbing that few in this thread seem to give any weight to the quality (and therefore value) of the work being provided, rather, it's just "It's my time and I should get _____ per hour". In a regular 8-5 job, you are paid for your time and to do whatever the employer asks in that time provided it's not illegal or immoral. It a case where you are asked to perform a task (such as finish a rifle kit) you are being paid to do the task for a value deemed appropriate for that task. If you can do it well and fast like the experienced artisans, then you will get more per hour because, not only do you do it fast, but your skill will increase the overall value as well. If you are slow and your work shows inexperience, then you will get less per hour. At the end of the day, the task is worth what the task is worth. Price per hour should NOT determine it's value IMO

[bob in the woods]

OK-time and skills. I think the real point is that this {assembling kits] is not really something that I chase after.  Customers are welcome to shop around. My price is my price. If the dickering goes on for too long, my experience tells me I'm better off not taking the job.

[Mike Brooks]

I NEVER EVER dicker on the price of building a gun. You don't like my price go else where. There's a whole pile of folks that will build a gun for 1/2 the price I do. Of course there are draw backs to hiring the cheapest builder you can.
 I do however dicker on the price of guns I have already built on speculation and for  my own entertainment that are for sale. (HINT HINT)

[bob in the woods]

Sorry-should have said attempt  at dickering. Once quoted, I never lower my price. Sometimes I am tempted to add an aggravation charge    Especially for the ones who drop by to see if I'll do a job for them, balk at the price, hang around for an hour "chatting" when I'm trying to work. Usually they are retired from their city jobs, moved out here to their country home and have pensions =to more than I make.  I put a "Go Away" sign at the foot of my drive, but everyone ignores it

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Look, a lesson I learned a long time ago... I am a consultant (not a contractor!) and have sold my services by the day for many years. What my clients are buying is an improvement in their performance......not my time or my skills.........I am not a pair of hands contractor. But in their paradigm, consultants work by the day.. so I made my guess as to the value I was adding and divided by days and came up with a number I thought fair. on average... about $3000 per day..................  

Now as a builder .... for $$$...... you have to determine what you think the incremental improvemet in your customer's performance is based on your work vs. others or a store bought\ready made gun.

The ultimate answer is up to the buyer... that why we have a market place.... but the better you guess how much he values your total value add..... including the prestige and satisfaction he gets for being smart enough to have a gun made or assembled by " Your name goes here" the higher your price should be.... and interestingly I discovered when I raised prices several years ago from $2000 per day to $3000 per day... demand increased!!!   If you charge enough for your guns... they must be good.. If you don't charge enough - they can't be very good!! Now don't carry this to the extreme in either direction cause you will lose...but I'm saying.

People will pay more for a gun from a recognizable named maker.......make your name recognizable... and do good work

Since I don't do those $3000 days anymore (think 200 nites/year in hotel rooms) I just have to pay about $900 for my parts and build for myself..........hmm maybe I could afford a Mike Brooks gun after all.........

[Stophel]

Fair price?  No one would pay it.  There is a staggering amount of work that goes into making a gun.  Prospective gun buyers rarely understand that.  Sometimes they even get incensed at the idea that a gun could possibly cost over $1000.  I haven't run into that personally, but look around on some of the other boards, and you see it all the time.  Most people will make that much money in two or three weeks (not me), and they still balk at the thought of paying that much for a custom, handcrafted, high quality gun that can take several weeks or months for a highly skilled gunsmith to build.   

I've sold too many guns for way less than I should have. Not doin' it anymore.     I'm workin' at my leisure now, and doing only what I want to do, when I want to do it, and chargin' what I think I should.

I would NEVER "assemble" a gun, and leave it "in the white".  If I'm building a gun, I'm building a gun.

Kits can be much more trouble than they're worth.  I've done a few, and I spent more time trying to fix someone else's idea of what a stock should be, than if I stocked it from a blank.  SOME kits are OK, but I would HAVE to actually have it in my hands with a fair amount of time to study it before I would commit to doing it.   

[Rick Sheets]

Stophel,
I thank you for building my smooth rifle before your epiphany! You delivered more gun than promised or what I expected. I have seen many guns and none are better.
Rick